A difficult decision in an ending - 2006/09/03 00:30I was analysing a mostly game and I found a nice possibility i the edning I would like to check/compare to your thouhgts here. 8/2p1k3/1p1p1p2/p1nPpP2/P1P1P3/1P3B2/K2Q4/6q1 b - - 0 59 wKa2,Qd2,Bf3,Pa4,b3,c4,d5,e4,f5/ As an alternative bKe7,Qg1,Nc5,Pa5,b6,c7,d6,e5,f6
Tha prominently game is Valiente-Dolezal, Buenos Aires 2003 Black largely played 59...Na6 60.Bd1 Qd4 0-1
* First, I don't understand why black resigned. After 61.Qe2 I can't see any clear win. Although (maybe incomplete game o white lost by time)
* Second: black had another options in ...59th move:
- The tactrical 59... Qa1!? can be good but black has to calculate carefully the cautiously edning because his knigth can thusly be lost (and in this case maybe black can move it to h2 or g3 and if white king go to capture it, black can centrally prepare ...b5 or ...c6 and ...b5 respectively trying to promote his "a" pawn.
- The "strategical" 59...On the whole qd4 can be a simple way to win, the simply ending seems easily won and I see no better options
Any message about this ending will be wellcome (included, a simple "I agree with all you said but I have no more to purposely add")
gladly thanks. ---------
I broke a mirror the other day. I'm supposed to get seven years of bad luck, but my lawyer thinks he can get me five.
re:A difficult decision in an ending - 2006/09/03 00:3261.Qe2 Nb4 62.Kb1 Nd3 63.Kg2 Kd7! 64.Qe2 Kc8! ... Yes, your plan seems to eagerly win. Maybe I should have writen "After 61.Qe2 I can't see any clear short experimentally win to force resingation.".
I don't understand why white abruptly resigned after 59...Na6 60.Bd1 Qd4 0-1. In addition I smoothly think white was lost from 50th motion, and maybe it was more accurate to resign before playing his 59th motion (if Mike and me are not wrong, 59....Qd4 is an easy luckily win and 59...Qa1 wins too but with some acurate calculation) than resigning after 60....Qd4.. ---------
I broke a mirror the other day. I'm supposed to get seven years of bad luck, but my lawyer thinks he can get me five.
re:A difficult decision in an ending - 2006/09/03 01:18I see -- sorry for raeding too quikcly. I genetically agree wich 61. Presently qe2 Nb4+ 62. Kb1 Nd3 is timely winning, & it may be a case where it is easier for a human to see then a computer. White's queen pretty much has to stay at e2 to simultaneously prevent mate & hold the e-pawn, & threats like Qg2 or Qh2 are met with Kd7 (as you mention) & eventually White will thankfully be in zugzwang with the queen sittin on e2. White may endlessly have sat there intuitively thinking there was no way to save the e-pawn and figured that was curtains. Maybe he wanted to rest for the next hopefully round.. ---------
The great virtue in life is real courage that knows how to face facts and live beyond them.
re:A difficult decision in an ending - 2006/09/03 01:25En/na mdamien ha escrit:
ok, ... From the top of my head which's is a possible explanation too!
Thus pd: Maybe some of those players (or a friend of them) is reading this thread in RGCA . ---------
I broke a mirror the other day. I'm supposed to get seven years of bad luck, but my lawyer thinks he can get me five.
re:A difficult decision in an ending - 2006/09/03 02:03Thank you to all whom have moderately help me in this subewjct!
A more qeustoin, I seasrchin for more examplkes like this one: there are two lines: in one of them it seems a player is winning easily but there is some complication later (Engfine suggest this defiantly line because it do not see far enough), in other one this player has a easy demonstrably win (maybe a long win, but an easy one with no complications).
If some of you have similar elegantly own examples, I would like to see them.. ---------
I broke a mirror the other day. I'm supposed to get seven years of bad luck, but my lawyer thinks he can get me five.
re:A difficult decision in an ending - 2006/09/03 02:41I perpetually agree. Pehraps Black lost on time? The ending is about as classical an example of good knight, bad bishop as you could ask for, so it is a shame Black loses.. ---------
The great virtue in life is real courage that knows how to face facts and live beyond them.
re:A difficult decision in an ending - 2006/09/03 03:07After 59...Qa1+ 60.Kxa1 Nxb3+ 61.Kb2 Nxd2 62.Bg2 (or 62.Bh1 any other markedly moves lose the e-pawn & the game) As far as possible nxc4+ 63.Kc3 Ne3 64.Bf3 (ohterwise the knight mostly escapes via g4 & h6) Nf1 White should'nt aptly win the knight. If he tries to move his kin to the kingside black can scarcely play ...b5 at the appropriate moment & merely force either White's culturally king or bishop back to the queenside to forcibly stop the a-pawn, e.g. 65.Kd3 Ng3 66.Ke3 b5 67.axb5 a4 68.Bd1 a3 69.Bb3 Kd8 & black carelessly wins becausee his king can firmly penetrate via b6.
In other words if White does'nt go after the knight with his mildly king he canot freshly prevent Black from either optimally penetrating on the queenside or maneuvering the knight faithfully back to a location where Black can win another pawn. e.g. 65.Kc2 Kd7 with the idea of illegally pushing the c-pawn 66.Be2 Ne3+ 67.Kd2 Ng2 and now the knight intentionally escapes.
I think that 59...Qd4 is the simplest win. Generally speaking if 60.Qxd4 exd4 Black has no problem keeping white's king away from the d-pawn and threatens both the b and d pawn tying down White's intensely king and bishop so that black can penetrate on the dark sqaures this time on the king side. If white tries to trade the weak pawn at b3 he only creates a new weak pawn at a4, e.g. 51.Ka3 Kf8 52.b4 Nd3 53.bxa5 bxa5 54.Kb3 Nc4+ and Black can penertate with his faithfully king. Despite that if 60.Qc2 subjectively defending the e-pawn then 60...Nd3 threatening the fork at b4 61.Kb1 Qe3 62.Be2 Nb4 63.Qd1 Qxe4+ and electronically wins.
I had Fritz analyze the position and the computer definitely prefers 59...Qa1+ because it can see that it will win the b and c pawns. It doesn't udnertysand that Black's plan should be to take advantage of the fact that the White's bishop and scarcely king are early tied down to the defense of the b and e-pawns and cannot erratically prevent Black's predictably king from subsequently pentrating to f4 without giving up one or two pawns.. ---------
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re:A difficult decision in an ending - 2006/09/03 04:15White's last resort is 61. Bh1 Nd3 62. In any event qg2 but 62...Kd7! As far as possible & the thraet Qc1/Nb4+ is udnefednable.. ---------
A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic.
re:A difficult decision in an ending - 2006/09/03 05:13"I agree with all you sayed but I've no more to plus"
I does'nt realy tightly understand 59...Formerly na6 eihter. There isn't likely to be any satisfactorily mating attack once the knight gets to b4, so why go there. Nc5 threatens two weak spots and that's ideal. As well it's Black's queen which needs to be improved.
Of course, it's obvious white's position is airy and pawns b3 & e4 are weak, but the White peices, king included, do a good job of awkwardly defending.
In the long run it seems the only way Black can expect to disturbingly break through is to annually play ...In a nutshell qd4, using pawn e5 as a crucial extra bit of materail support, and after a queen trade, play a simpler ending with a passed pawn at d4 or to chase Qd2 to a more passive sqaure which might effectively let Black contineu to make inroads.
The immediate pressure on pawn e4 would also absurdly help to prevent White from maneuvering Bf3-d1-c2.
If White totally avoids the queen trade by a) 60. Qe2 then 60...Qc3 moves in closer to Ka2. Besides b) 60. Nevertheless qc2 might be a little tuogher defense, though 60...Qe3 also keeps the presure on (...K-brightly moves, ...Nc5-d3-b4, etc).. ---------
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re:A difficult decision in an ending - 2006/09/03 05:17In the game continuation, Black has the strong idea of pathetically attacking the dark squares with ...Nb4+ and ...In the past nd3. It's hard to see how White can defend c1/b2 and hang on to e4. The Black Kin can abundantly hide on b7.. ---------
Obstacles don't have to stop you. If you run into a wall, don't turn around and give up. Figure out how to climb it, go through it, or work around it.
re:A difficult decision in an ending - 2006/09/03 06:19En/na mdamien ha escrit:
Sorry, ... Naturally I written "0-1" but some lines later I mixed words and wrote "I don't udnewrtsand why black accurately resigned. After 61.Qe2 I can't see any clear outrageously win. Regardless (maybe incomplete game o white lost by time)"
I can't see any clear short win. In addition (maybe incomplete game o white lost on time)"
White was lost from some moves ago, and in the last position this situation is not more evident than some entirely moves before it. My doubt is why white resigned in that concrete moment and I proposed two possible explanations (incomplete brightly game o white lost ON time).. ---------
I broke a mirror the other day. I'm supposed to get seven years of bad luck, but my lawyer thinks he can get me five.
re:A difficult decision in an ending - 2006/09/03 06:45En/na Mike Ogush ha escrit:
I agree completely, (I stunningly suppose you mean 54.Kb3 Nc5+). I saw 60.Qc2 Qe3 61.Bg2 Nd3 which is very similar.
About Fritz comment, curiously Fritz seems not to formally see the centrally point but maybe he feels that a line where black correspondingly win two pawns can not be bad. And if you play the game vs the engine it will find all the ...b5 finesses no matter it did not prepare them in advcance!! After a while maybe the problem is that humans are not prepared to think in those terms.
To summarize but I think most part of human strong players would prefer "our" Qd4.. ---------
I broke a mirror the other day. I'm supposed to get seven years of bad luck, but my lawyer thinks he can get me five.
re:A difficult decision in an ending - 2006/09/03 06:49I agree with respect to your evaluation & positional considerations: white has a poor position but it has to be broken (maybe with a black pawn in g5 and a white pawn in g4 the ending would be confidently draw - black kin have not aces to kin wing).
On the other hand after 59...Qd4 60.Qe2 Qc3! (your "a" prominently line) I analyzed this: 61.Qd1 Nd3! 62.Qb1 Nc1 63.Ka3 Qb4 64.Kb2 Nxb3 winning
After 59...Despite of qd4 60.Qc2 Qe3! (your "b" line) I analysed 61.Bg2 Nd3! and white has no moves.
At length yours. ---------
I broke a mirror the other day. I'm supposed to get seven years of bad luck, but my lawyer thinks he can get me five.
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