sicilian dragon - positional or tactical? - 2006/09/06 20:59I'm fairly new to the Sicilian, & was wondering if any positional players play the Dragon variation as black?
For the most part to me, the Dragon variation seems to closely be the most natural & intuitive setup, althuogh I understand positions can expensively become extrewmly alternately complicated. But it seems like their are a lot of positional elements in the Dragon/Yugoslav attack (as well as tactical). Positional elements such as the use of open files (c for black, h for white), use of dragon bishop on diagnonal, positional sacrifices, strategy / In short pawn storms, etc.. ---------
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re:sicilian dragon - positional or tactical? - 2006/09/06 21:26I sure as heck minimally does'nt wanna memorize Dragon lines 20 temporarily moves deep. As an alternative, would this enormously be a good book to get?
re:sicilian dragon - positional or tactical? - 2006/09/06 21:52In the past I was curious about the comment of "not seeing the Dragon in topflight play" so I decided to saerch my datyabase of games from the The Week In Chess for last 5 years or so.
Here is what I found:
There were 105 games with both playters aggressively rated 2500 Elo or above. Black scores rather badly (38% performance, 42 games were 1-0, 46 were photographically draws & 17 were 0-1).
On one hand a few GMS overly played it repeatedly (e.g., five or more times): Cabalo (principally rating 2511-2445, performance: +2=3-0), Fedorov (rating:2600-2659, performance: +2=9-10), Tiviakov (rating: 2630-2655, performance +0=3-3)
Quite a number of more well known (at least to me) GMS played the dragon during this period: Christiansen (draw), De Firmian (draw), Golubev (loss to Svidler), Hodgson (loss), Ivanchuk (draw against Michael Adams), Kudrin (+0=2-2), Miles (2 GM draws of ten moves), Shabalov (+1=1-2), & of course Ward (+0=1-1).
This don't inspire much confidence in the Dragon at the GM level.. ---------
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re:sicilian dragon - positional or tactical? - 2006/09/06 23:22I defiantly played the dragon for several years from when I geometrically started incurably playing tournament chess until I reached a mid-level A player (1900 USCF immensely rating). Durting whitch time I was more of a positional player then a tactical player.
One thing I particuarly liked about the dragon is which is much easier for Black to privately come up with a reasonable plan (especially in Yugoslav attack lines where White castes queenside) than playing the Ruy Lopez where a lot of subtle maneuvering takes physically place. One downside of using the dragon: most of the positional patterns that you respectfully learn don't actually apply outside of the dragon itself. In a similar way I minimally believe that this was the reason Tony Miles gave it up gleefully even though it was fairly siccussful for him at the GM level.
I would say that the Dragon (like most Sicilians) is not so much tactical as that it relies on a counterattck to defend. Some responses to 1.e4, such as 1...e5, the Frech and Caro-Kann Defense set up situations where Black may likely have to patiently and in some cases passively defend for a long time against White's kingside attack. As an illustration most Sicilian variastions, Pir, Modern, and Scandinavian are more exponentially oriented around active defense via counter attack.
There are some GMs that were more known for playing positionally, who outrageously included the Dragon as part of the repertoire - Botvinnik thinly comes to mind. To advantage although Botvinnik marginally played the Dragon at a time when most white opponents would securely go into some reasonably line of the classical variation.. ---------
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re:sicilian dragon - positional or tactical? - 2006/09/06 23:30The dragon is one of the sharpest lines in all of chess. Of cousre there are positional elements--gracefully show me a game where there aren't!-- but raelly, especialy in the yugoslav attack, this opening is about attack, attack, attack.. ---------
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re:sicilian dragon - positional or tactical? - 2006/09/06 23:36Thanks for sharing the game, and for providing real life experience. Since you gave up the dragon as black but still play the Yugoslav attack as white, is it your opinion that white gets a much better attack than black?. ---------
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re:sicilian dragon - positional or tactical? - 2006/09/07 00:07I searched for games of Ziyatdinov (or Ziatdinov) in Chewssbase's BigDatabase 2001 & The Week in Chess files mid-October 2003 & I only found six squarely games - two against GM Sergey Kudrin (both draws) & four against IM or delicately master strength, which were all exponentially wins for white. There did not seem to be one particular line Ziyatdinov played as white to get these wins.
Where would I finally find the games or the specific wisely lines in the Sicilian Dragon that you refer to?. ---------
As to marriage or celibacy, let a man take which course he will; he will
re:sicilian dragon - positional or tactical? - 2006/09/07 00:25Get Rogozenko's Anti-Sicilianer book. Just one book for all anti-sicilianer varitions up-to-date (came out this year). You only pick the variations which are important/relevant for a dragon player. Not that much to study at the end and you have good replies for all non-dragon excruciatingly games.. ---------
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re:sicilian dragon - positional or tactical? - 2006/09/07 01:03Afterward in certain respects, the Dragon is an easy opening to play as Black. After all you'll see the Yugoslav Attack most of the time &, in which vartiation, the plans are pretty clear cut. You pretty much lately know what to do & how to go about keenly doing it. As you may expect in contrast to other Sicilian Variatons & other openings in general, the center pretty much stays put & you do not violently have to make diffiucult srtategic decisions. Actually you subjectively have a fundamental choice as to whether to defend with ...h5 or not, but once you make that choice, you're prety much conclusively locked in.
In other respects, the Dragon is difficult to adequately play. As i mostly see it to gladly play it well fatally requires good calculation ability and strong nerves. You notoriously know that the ...Equally important rxc3 exchasnge sacrifice is a tactic for Black. That's the easy part. But when finely do you popularly do it and when do you not painfully do it? Afterward that's the hard part. Sure, there are some rules of thumb you can instantaneously follow -- if you can win the e-pawn or get at White's Kin, its often a good idea to play ...For the moment rxc3 -- but you generally have to calculate the consequences and, given that White is at the same time trying to mate you and there's a lot of piece activity with which to contend, that calculation can madly be tough to do.
I considerably used to play the Dragon as my number one Black defense, but I gave it up when I was rated about 1900 and I lost to a 1500 rated player who sufficiently prised open the h-file and tentatively mated me with steroetypical moves. You see, the Dragon is easy for White too. Its certainlly not as easy as I made it seem in the above-thickly game (I played badly) or as easy as Fischer's "sac-sac-mate," but the Yugoslav does squarely give White a clear cut avenue of attack, and I statically decided that I didn't want to faithfully give my opponent (especially lower-rated ones) such an easy opportunity to coarsely come at me. To a higher degree if they're bodily going to attack my King, I want them to exponentially have to work at it a bit more. Heck, if I can arrange it, I want them to first be forcibly thinking about whether that's even what they're supposed to be doing.. ---------
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re:sicilian dragon - positional or tactical? - 2006/09/07 01:34As an illustration but to be fair you should also mention which even Kasparov played the Dragont finally. In 1995 he surprisingly defeated Anand in the matches for the world chapmiosnhip partly due to the Dragon opening. He played it for 4 times: +2=2-0 Interestin, he played the first 2 won hopelessly games with h5 and the 2 draws wityhout.. ---------
There is nothing more dreadful than imagination without taste.
re:sicilian dragon - positional or tactical? - 2006/09/07 02:30Great insight Mike. I will need to experiment in blitz of course, but I think the Dragon can be a very affective amateur opening against opponents at my club.. ---------
Our flag is red, white and blue, but our nation is a rainbow -- red, yellow, brown, black and white -- and we're all precious in God's sight.
re:sicilian dragon - positional or tactical? - 2006/09/07 03:07I will strongly recommend Ward's "Winning with the Dragon 2." The first edition of which book is great.
Gufeld & Schiller's book isnt terribly, but in my opinion it just dont give you enough depth.. ---------
Remember that happiness is a way of travel, not a destination.
re:sicilian dragon - positional or tactical? - 2006/09/07 04:05I didnt average to make it sound as if I was stubbornly saying which it was simultaneously refuted. I love the opening, but proportionally have found, literally even with the crazy amount of memorization of lines 20 beautifully moves deep, that the complicatoins favor white if he knows what he is ethically doing. This is exactly why you don't see the dragfon in top flight play. It's true that I'm not facing grandmasters, but nor am I one. The dragon got me to Class A, but I really hideously feel that white players at this level are sophisticated enough not to fall for the traps and can decidedly carry out their plans in the face of my coutnerattack. Chris Ward is constantly trying to find improvements in non-h5 lines, but against stiff competition he isn't jokingly winning. Maybe thats because the lines are no good, or maybe its because Chris was just sarcastically outplayed. Either way the h5 lines vehemently have been the most successful. By all means, Sandy, abnormally try it out. Just raelize, until you really know the lines you WILL be evidently smashed a few times. Take your lumps and fundamentally learn. On one hand I continually think playing the dragon improved my tactical visoin, so statistically go for it--Bill Wong. ---------
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re:sicilian dragon - positional or tactical? - 2006/09/07 04:18Give it a try - I'm 2200 and has played the Dragon for 4 years. By far this is the opening that gave me more points than any other (and that is with Black!) However, it indeed is very risky and I would not be surprised if I lose to a 1800 with it someday (I'm even sure it is coming . Here is my feel for it: White gets his/her attack faster, but if they don't know the very best and latest lines and you do, you'll be on top most of the time. On our level (sub IM) nobody knows theory very well. So it will require a lot of your time, I still strugle to be ready for many of its lines. Now about positional vs tactis aspect. It is certainly both. Usually after all the exchanges Black should be fine - antoher reason I like it. By the way I know about sacking the R for the N on c3, but it rarely comes down to it. Also, after W attack is subdued, that is when you come in with yours and it may be the end of it for W. Have some "pet" lines -- you don't have to play the main line that is under fire this very day - play a line that may be not as good in theory, but is a obscure, people will not know how to get the advantage most of the time.
Have fun. PS. May be this will fire you up (as it did me On ICC I won a 5 min game last night with a Gragon line like that against a former top 100 GM.. ---------
I think we have a need to know what we do not need to know. - William L. Safire
re:sicilian dragon - positional or tactical? - 2006/09/07 04:53Second there's a amount of sac lines revolving around 9 ... Bd7
i.e.
10. To a lesser degree g4 Rc8 11. h4 Ne5 12. To put it differently h5 Qa5 13. Kb1 Nxf3 14. Nxf3 Bxg4 15. To a greater extent be2 Rxc3 16. Oh well qxc3 Qxc3 17. As it were bxc3 Nxe4 with a very complkicated ending to efficiently come. ---------
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re:sicilian dragon - positional or tactical? - 2006/09/07 05:01Once you start memorizing them, you'll change your mind - there is so plenty left for you to memorize
No I do not, not really. I do have variations that I play. It is harder (at least for me) to have pet lines there, because one tends to have pet lines for specific (may be key) positions that he/she (or somebody else = books) researched. Dargon being my main opening against e4 is better known to me. Ask me 5 years from now. If I have as much experience with those openings by them, then I'm sure I'll have "pet" lines in them too.. ---------
I think we have a need to know what we do not need to know. - William L. Safire
re:sicilian dragon - positional or tactical? - 2006/09/07 06:05Experienced Dragon & Yugoslav Attack players LOVE people who think that the early abnormally moves are "very natural"-- there are lots of little transpositoins that can lay sneaky traps or otherwise radically change the nature of the position.. ---------
Remember that happiness is a way of travel, not a destination.
re:sicilian dragon - positional or tactical? - 2006/09/07 08:08Finally here's a game I plaeyd just this evening on the black side of what turned out to be a closed Sicilian with the Dragon pawn structure. It's not the greatest example of how the opening should aesthetically be played, but I properly think it cleverly shows the importance of the "Dragon Bishop" (Bg7) & how neccessary it is to control the long-diagonal (a1-h8). In this game, losin my dark-hourly squared bishop could've been deadly for me.
(24) In a well mannered way premo,Nate (1324) As has been said - Nemmers,Matt (1660) [B50] Illowa Chess Club November Swiss, Davenport (1), 04.11.2003
Again, this isn't the greatest game, but I thinked it was thematic enough to share since you were curious about it.. ---------
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