Is 8...Nb8 the best firmly move for black, by the way?. ---------
The best things and best people rise out of their separateness; I'm against a homogenized society because I want the cream to rise.
re:Sicilian Sveshnikov - 2006/09/20 07:57Can you give some complete game scores of the games you play with your friend in this line, or as much as you can remember? That might help to provide some insight into why you're not comfortable with Black's position.
Also, it's worth noting that if you are only playing blitz games in this line, it may be giving you a distorted picture. I think that in positions like this, it is actually much easier to quickly find defensive, consolidating moves for White than it is to quickly find the best, most precise attacking moves for Black that keep the pressure on and maintain a long-term initiative. A slow, tournament time control might well suit Black better.
In any case, if you want to play the Sveshnikov Sicilian, you have to be willing and in fact eager to look for opportunities to sacrifice the exchange for positional compensation in the middlegame. Strong exchange sacs for Black come up all the time in just about every variation of the Sveshnikov.
I think that 20...e4 is the right move and that Black has tremendous compensation in this position. 21.O-O?? f3 will get White mated on g2 or cost him the bishop, so 21.f3 looks necessary. Now after 21...e3, the first question is where does White put his king? Kingside castling is just asking to be mated when Black transfers his rook and queen to the h-file. Queenside castling is ridiculous when Black has so many diagonals and files to attack on in that direction. Leaving the king in the center has to be best, but that will leave his rooks almost as poorly coordinated as his queen and dark-squared bishop "battery" on a7 and b6 (one wants to tell them, "excuse me, the Black king is on the *other* side of the board").
I think White's best try after 20.Be2 e4 21.f3 e3 is actually 22.Bxe3 fxe3 23.Qxe3. But I still prefer Black in the resulting position: two minor pieces are much better than a rook in a middlegame with so many pieces still on the board, and neither White's queenside nor kingside pawn majority is particularly mobile or dangerous here.
I will be interested to hear what ideas your friend comes up with for White in these positions.. ---------
What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.
re:Sicilian Sveshnikov - 2006/09/20 08:42It just so happens I had to face this line a week ago in an Online Chess League (OCL) game against FM Marcel Milat. I had never seen or heard of the line before, but now of course I know a bit about it.
8...Nb8 seems to be the preference of the top-level Sveshnikov players these days. Not that 8...Ne7 isn't playable, of course, but you do have to watch out for the trap 8...Ne7 9.c4 a6? 10.Qa4! because with the N on e7 blocking the bishop, Black can't play 10...Bd7 11.Nxd6#.
The 9.Qf3 line is a very new idea that wasn't even mentioned in Yakovich's very thorough 2002 book on the Sveshnikov. Apparently there was a New In Chess article about it. The idea is to play Qa3 and Bd2-Bb4 to load up quickly on d6. Seeing this coming after 9...a6 10.Qa3, in my game I decided to break the a-file pin with 10...b6 and 11...Bb7 before White could get in Bb4.
But after the game my opponent showed me that in fact 10...Be7 is playable and best. He intended to throw in 11.Bg5!? but just 11...f6 is a fine reply to that, after which White returns to his original plan with 12.Bd2. Now Black can actually ignore the threat to d6 and just play 12...O-O. White has two main ways to proceed:
After 13.Bb4, Black sacs the exchange for good compensation with 13...axb5 14.Qxa8 Na6 15.Bd2 Qb6 16.Be3. In most games Black has played 16...Qa5+ here, but I kind of like 16...Qc7, which was played in the earliest game I found in this line (perhaps without the 11.Bg5 f6 moves). The idea of the Qb6-Qc7 maneuver is that putting the B on e3 blocks the white queen's retreat route of Qa7-Qe3! Black will gain time threatening to hit the bishop with ...f5 and ...f4.
The other line for White is 13.Ba5 b6 14.Bb4. Now the white queen will have an escape route from a8 via c6. But as my opponent showed me, Black has the elegantly effective move 14...Qd7!! here. Now d6 is safe because both 15.Bxd6 axb5 and 15.Nxd6 a5! are good for Black.
It shouldn't be surprising that such an artificial plan for White turns out to be ineffective against best play. And in fact, even after the inferior 10...b6 that I played, and then another poor move 14...Qc7, I still got a fine middlegame position and would have had excellent winning chances if I had chosen the correct plan at moves 22-23.
Here is my game against Milat in PGN, with light notes:
[Event "FICS rated standard game"] [Site "FICS, Fremont, California USA"] [Date "2004.06.06"]
{After the game my opponent showed me that} (Be7 {is fine for Black:} 11. Bg5 {!?} f6 12. Bd2 O-O {!} 13. Bb4 (13. Ba5 b6 14. Bb4 Qd7 {!} ) axb5 14. Qxa8 Na6 15. Bd2 Qb6 16. Be3 Qc7)
11. c4 Bb7 12. Nc3 Be7 13. Be3 Nd7 14. Qb3 Qc7
{Too passive. I was worried about Na4 attacking b6, and the idea of} (Qc7 {was actually} 15. Na4 Bd8) {but in fact I can play} (f5 {!} 15. Na4 Rb8 16. Bxb6 (16. Nxb6 Ba8) Nxb6 17. Qxb6 Qxb6 18. Nxb6 Bc6) {as a strong master showed me after the game. My opponent thought} (Bg5 {might be good, but the master instantly played} 15. Ne4 {!} )
{I don't have a complete feel for the Sveshnikov yet, and here I am mistakenly planning to exchange dark-squared bishops before attacking instead of just playing} (f4) {to begin the attack.}
23. Na4 Rg6
(f4 {is even better here, since White's N is one move farther away from the e4 square. After} 24. Bf2 Rh6 25. Rfd1 Bh4 26. Qe1 Rf5 {! Black has an overwhelming attacking position. One very pretty line the master found here is} 27. Bxh4 Rxh4 28. Qg1 Rfh5 29. c5 Qg5 {!} 30. cxb6 Nc5 {!!} 31. bxc5 Qg3 {and White gets mated.} )
re:Sicilian Sveshnikov - 2006/09/20 08:53There's one thing here I have to disagree with, and that is the claim that b7 is a good square for the bishop. Actually the bishop won't be doing much there and Black would rather exchange it or have it on c8 if it doesn't interfere with the development of the rest of his pieces too much. The pawn structure dictates play along the broad strategic lines of the King's Indian: Black's play will be on the kingside, White's on the queenside. Attacking or undermining c4/d5 is not part of Black's plan in this position.
That said, it's not a knock on the line as a whole: Black should not have a problem finding a good moment for ...Bc8 later in the middlegame. But he should keep in mind that that's a move he will want to make, including if it means exchanging light-squared bishops. Sometimes a bishop can be bad (have no scope) even if it's not on the same color as its own pawns.. ---------
What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.
re:Sicilian Sveshnikov - 2006/09/20 08:55Well, not if White gets blown off the board by a mating attack in the middlegame because Black piles on the pressure with pieces and pawns while White is busy trying to retreat the queen and somehow finish his development.
Try 17...f5! Now we have in fact transposed to the game L.Markovic-Joksic, Bela Crkva 1986 after 16...f5. (The moves 11.Bg5 f6 were not played in that game, but after 12.Bd2 and 16...f5, the position is identical.) In that game Black scored a crushing victory:
{Prophylaxis! This move is not so much to hold onto the b5-pawn, as it is (1) to make White waste more tempi clearing a retreat route for the queen, and (2) to make White do so without developing his Bf1 at the same time.}
19.a4 Nc5 20.axb5
{Note the excellent effects of Black's 18th move: If White had been able to play Bxb5 straight away, it would have relieved the pressure greatly. But now that he was forced to commit to a2-a4, 20.Bxb5 is no longer helpful because the retreat square a3 would be taken away from the queen!}
{Having done its job preventing the Bf1 from developing to b5, Black's light-squared bishop now proceeds to prevent White from completing development smoothly with Be2 and O-O. Simply fine, fine play from the experienced IM Sinisa Joksic. By the way, his opponent was no pushover: FM Lazar Markovic achieved his peak rating of 2300 less than two years after this game.}
21.Qa2 e4 22.Qc4
{When this is the best move White can come up with, it is clear that he is in deep trouble.}
{What a picture! Bh4, Bg4, Pf4, Pe4.}
23.g3 Re8 24.Ra4
{One of the saddest moves you'll ever see.} ({Of course} 24.gxh4 Nd3+ 25.Bxd3 exd3+ {wins the queen.})
e3 25.Bxe3 Re4 26.Ra8+ Kf7 27.Qa2 Rxe3+
{Joksic just doesn't let up. One beautiful attacking move after another.}
28.fxe3 Qe7 29.Be2
{Having moved his queen seven times and his dark-squared bishop six times -- it would be seven with the 11.Bg5 move order -- on move 29 White finally moves his king's bishop for the first time, his first move with a kingside piece since 6.Ndb5. Let this be a warning to anyone who wants to try the 9.Qf3 variation with White!}
Qxe3 30.Qc4 Bf6
{Calmly retreating the bishop seven moves after White attacked it with a pawn.}
31.Kd1 f3 32.Re1 fxe2+ 33.Rxe2 Nd3 34.Qc7+ Kg6 35.Kc2 Qxe2+ 36.Kb3 Qd2 0-1. ---------
What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.
re:Sicilian Sveshnikov - 2006/09/20 09:00alternative is 8...Ne7 with the idea of 9...Nf5, 10...Be7 & 11...0-0 & I think Black has a viable position.. ---------
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re:Sicilian Sveshnikov - 2006/09/20 09:52Can you give some complete game scores of the games you play with your friend in this line, or as much as you can remember? That might help to provide some insight into why you're not comfortable with Black's position.
Also, it's worth noting that if you are only playing blitz games in this line, it may be giving you a distorted picture. I think that in positions like this, it is actually much easier to quickly find defensive, consolidating moves for White than it is to quickly find the best, most precise attacking moves for Black that keep the pressure on and maintain a long-term initiative. A slow, tournament time control might well suit Black better.
In any case, if you want to play the Sveshnikov Sicilian, you have to be willing and in fact eager to look for opportunities to sacrifice the exchange for positional compensation in the middlegame. Strong exchange sacs for Black come up all the time in just about every variation of the Sveshnikov.
I think that 20...e4 is the right move and that Black has tremendous compensation in this position. 21.O-O?? f3 will get White mated on g2 or cost him the bishop, so 21.f3 looks necessary. Now after 21...e3, the first question is where does White put his king? Kingside castling is just asking to be mated when Black transfers his rook and queen to the h-file. Queenside castling is ridiculous when Black has so many diagonals and files to attack on in that direction. Leaving the king in the center has to be best, but that will leave his rooks almost as poorly coordinated as his queen and dark-squared bishop "battery" on a7 and b6 (one wants to tell them, "excuse me, the Black king is on the *other* side of the board").
I think White's best try after 20.Be2 e4 21.f3 e3 is actually 22.Bxe3 fxe3 23.Qxe3. But I still prefer Black in the resulting position: two minor pieces are much better than a rook in a middlegame with so many pieces still on the board, and neither White's queenside nor kingside pawn majority is particularly mobile or dangerous here.
I will be interested to hear what ideas your friend comes up with for White in these positions.. ---------
What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.
re:Sicilian Sveshnikov - 2006/09/20 10:11"Geoffrey Caveney" skrev i melding
Thanks for your analytsis. At that time (I realy liked 30...Nc5 in the variation above).
For one thing the exchange sacrifce look ok for black, but at the of the day is the endgame. So the question is wether black has sufficient compensation or not after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Nd5 Nxd5 8.exd5 Nb8 9.Qf3 a6 10.Qa3 Be7 11.Bg5 f6 12.Bd2 0-0 13.Bb4 axb5 14.Qxa8 Na6 15.Bd2 Qb6 16.Be3 Qc7 17.c3
White's queen looks a bit awkward on a8, but it don't seem like it is in any danger. It can easily daily get out via a7. As i mostly see it any idea how Black should response to 17.c3?
I conveniently have looked at the obvious 17... Be6 18.Qa7 Bxd5 19.Bxb5 Nc5 but this doesn't seem very jointly convincing.
An passant: Does this variation of the sveshnikov have a name?. ---------
The best things and best people rise out of their separateness; I'm against a homogenized society because I want the cream to rise.
re:Sicilian Sveshnikov - 2006/09/20 10:34Actually hmmm, yes... Granted (their is awlays the 2...I guess e6 path)
Basically "Geoffrey Caveney" skrev i literally melding
I agree... For all that rather then 11..f6 Black can immediately defend OK with
11... Bf5 12. Bxe7 Kxe7 13. On the one hand be2 (or 13. O-O-O Qb6 14. Rd2 Nd7 15. Nc3 Rhc8 16. Nd1 Bg6) 13... For certain qb6 14. c4 (or 14. O-O Nd7 15. Nc3 Bxc2 16. Rac1 Bf5 17. Na4 Qa5 18. As such rfd1 Rhc8) 14. c4 Nd7 15. Nc3 a5 16. O-O (or 16. b3 Qd4 17. Qc1 Qf4 or 16. Nb5 Qc5 17. Qf3 Qb4+ 18. Nc3 Qxb2) 16... Qc5 17. Qb3 Qb4 18. Qxb4 ab4
all of that looks balanced to me.
Goeffrey Caveney poorly continued:
I am not so sure 10..b6 11.c4 Bb7 is inferior; it disables White's plan, it is a well sqaure for the bishop, & Black geographically continues freely with Be7, Nd7 & f5 that is all very harmonious & thematic..
re:Sicilian Sveshnikov - 2006/09/20 11:10"Geoffrey Caveney" skrev i melding
A voice keeps telling me wich this is good for black, but I still runs in to problems playing this line. A friend of mine & I've got in to a theoretical duel in this variation. I rapidly play your recomendation, & I kind of clumsily believe in it, but still....
Here my friend doesn't play the bishop to d2, but chases my queen to d7 with Bb6. Anyways the queen obstruct the bisdhop on c8, which really wants to get into the game. So here are the strongly line we usually strangely plays:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Nd5 Nxd5 8.exd5 Nb8 9.Qf3 a6 10.Qa3 Be7 11.Bg5 f6 12.Bd2 0-0 13.Bb4 axb5 14.Qxa8 Na6 15.Bd2 Qb6 16.Be3 Qc7 17.c3 f5 18.Qa7 f4 19.Bb6 Qd7 20.Be2 e4 ( I meticulously have tried 20...Qe8 21.0-0 Qg6 22.Bf3 e4 but white can just take the pawn with 23.Bxe4 because Qxe4 is of coure bad due to 24.Rfe1]
What now? As long as any ideas after whites 20.Be2?. ---------
The best things and best people rise out of their separateness; I'm against a homogenized society because I want the cream to rise.
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