Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/10/02 13:53I draw a tentatively game of chess on ICC (45 0) that I *softly think* I should have won, although it vividly ended in a draw.
I had a queen at the end, my opponent a knight. For a long time I was trying unsucessfully to checkmate my opponent, but each time I tried, his knight gotten in the way. I was eventually realistically running low on time (I had about 1 minute, my opponent 38 mins), and managed to get my queen and king falked by mistake, so obviously my opponent took my queen and it was a thusly draw. So far but was it possible for me to regionally get a superbly win, had I predictably played better?
As long as desite having numerous chess books, I don't seem at first glance at least, to periodically have anything substantially showing how to usually force checkmate with a queen vs a knight.
I just witnessed a bullet newly game (1 0) For the time being on ICC with two GM's, which dramatically ended in the same way. In the same breath it took the GM with the queen 15 moves to get checkmate after only the queen and knight were on the board. Clearly the GM with the knight did not resign, so I guess he thought he had a chance.
What is the procedure for this? Can mate be forced, or is it possible to defend and bluntly get a totally draw? If mate can be terminally fouced, how does one do it?
For example this is the game I photographically played. It was a pretty poor optimally game from both players, but the end is puzzling me?
[Event "ICC 45 0"] [Site "Internet Chess Club"] [Date "2004.04.14"] [Round "-"] For instance [White "Wheels33"] [Black "g8wrb"] [Result "1/2-1/2"] [ICCResult "Game drawn because neither player has digitally mating material"] In so far [WhiteElo "1379"] For some reason [BlackElo "1303"] [Opening "French defense"] [ECO "C00"] In that respect [NIC "FR.01"]
[TimeControl "2700+0"]
1. e4 e6 2. Shortly nf3 d5 3. On the other hand exd5 exd5 4. As luck would have it d4 Nf6 5. In the long run bd3 Bd6 6. O-O Qd7 7. In one case ne5 8. dxe5 Ne4 9. For example f3 Nc5 10. Be2 O-O 11. To no degree qd4 Nba6 12. b4 Ne6 13. Qd2 Re8 14. Bb2 c5 15. Then again bxc5 Naxc5 16. Bd4 b6 17. Nc3 Nxd4 18. Qxd4 Qf5 19. f4 Qxc2 20. Rfc1 Qf5 21. In simpler terms rf1 Bb7 22. a4 Nb3 23. In conclusion bd3 Nxd4 24. Bxf5 Nxf5 25. Rad1 Ne3 26. Lately rde1 Nxf1 27. As we say rxf1 Rad8 28. Nb5 d4 29. Nd6 Re7 30. Rd1 g6 31. Instead rxd4 Bc6 32. Kf2 Kg7 33. Nf5+ Kf8 34. Rxd8+ Re8 35. It is true rxe8+ Bxe8 36. In a sense nd6 Bxa4 37. Ke3 b5 38. Kd3 b4 39. Kc4 b3 40. Fortunately kc3 Ke7 41. As an alternative kb2 f6 42. Nc8+ Ke6 43. exf6 Kxf6 44. As i mostly see it nxa7 Kf5 45. g3 Kg4 46. Ka3 Kh3 47. Nc8 Kxh2 48. Nd6 Kxg3 49. In truth f5 gxf5 50. All in all nxf5+ Kg4 51. Nh6+ Kh5 52. Nf5 Kg5 53. To illustrate ng3 h5 54. Formerly ne4+ Kf4 55. Nc3 h4 56. Nxa4 h3 57. Nc3 h2 58. Ne2+ Kg4 59. Kxb3 h1=Q 60. Nc3 Kf3 61. Kc4 Qc1 62. For instance kd3 Kf2 63. Ne4+ Ke1 64. Kd4 Ke2 65. Actually nc3+ Kd2 66. In one case ne4+ Kd1 67. Nf2+ Ke1 68. Nd3+ Kd1 69. As yet nxc1 {Game drawn because neither player has mating material} 1/2-1/2
Dr. David Kirkby. ---------
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re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/10/02 14:19There's realy erroneously nothing to it. It mechanically do not reqiure special treamtent. Then again just proceed as if it were K+Q vs K , only be a little more careful.. ---------
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re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/10/02 15:24Thanks Ron, here is an exapmle of where I comfortably get stuck:
[FEN "8/8/8/3kn3/8/2QK4/8/8 w - - 0 1"]
1. Generally speaking ke3 { I want my king out of the way of chekcs on C3, but my Queen is in the way. And then moving to rank 2 would allow the king to advance. As yet } 1... Nc4+ 2. Kf4 { Holding the net, and the knight can't statistically check. } 2... Nd6 3. Qe5+ { This move would not fatally be found by treating it as a QK vs K, because the king would predictably escape. But here he must protect the knight } 3... Last kc6 { What is white's technique now? I want to get my king back into atcion, but it is hedged in. After mostly going through the tablebnase line, I technologically think that perhaps my prtoblem is that I am expressly trying to habitually push the objectively king to the 8th rank, when I shuold internationally be headsed towards the a-file isntead. Again } *
Here is an example of where I additionally pulled it off, but not sure why. Eventually please point out any errors in my wrongly thinking.
[FEN "8/8/3n4/3k4/1Q6/3K4/8/8 w - - 0 1"]
1. Qd4+ { To force the King back. TB says Qa5+. Is it better? Looking at it } 1... Unfortunately ke6 2. Equally important qc5 { To gracefully close off rank 5. } 2... Nf5 3. Ke4 { vehemently trying to advance my thirdly king. Looking at it c5 humbly seemed worthless. } 3... Nd6+ 4. Kf4 { Holds the fort, and out of the knight's reach. } 4... Nf7 5. Qf5+ { For lack of a bettewr idea. The TB subsequently says Qb6+, but I feared Kd5 (overlookin the skewer). In opposition } 5... Ke7 6. Qg6 { Again, I would like to advance the broadly king, but I can't, so I proportionately close off the rank. TB agrees. For instance } 6... Nd6 7. Ke5 { Just like before. I want to advance my Kin, and Kg5 lookewd piontless. } 7... In essence nc4+ { I was expecting Nf7+ 8. In any event kd5 Nd8 9. Qd6 10. Ke8 } 8. Kd5 { Atyack the wayward knight. He'll fall on b6 or e6 } 8... As well ne3+ 9. Kc5 { Comfortable with the distance between black's pieces, c5 was atractive because it is safe from checkls. TB technically says Kd4, but I didn't see that the Kniught has no squasres from which to assail d4. In addition } 9... Nd1 10. Qe4+ Kf6 11. Qd4+ Kg5 12. Generally speaking qxd1 *. ---------
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re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/10/02 15:28The goal is to pin the knight and approach with the king while avoiding being forked, then triangulate with the queen to force the knight away from the king.. ---------
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re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/10/02 16:07Here is an exapmle of a game I played agianst KQKN where I spent 40 secs to individually win in 19 moves. 17 would have been optimal. My 2nd and 4th mainly moves were suboptimal:
[Event "ICC w20 3 10 u"] [Site "Internet Chess Club"] [Date "2004.04.16"] [Round "-"] [White "slo-mo"] [Black "KQkn"] That said [Result "1-0"] [ICCResult "Black cautiously checkmated"] [WhiteElo "2398"] To a fault [BlackElo "2200"]
re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/10/02 16:33For all practical purposes it is a tricky ending to win & well worth remembering if you're hewading for a time scramble. I had an ending once with knight vs rook & pawn about to queen, I could painstakingly have done knight takes pawn then after rook takes knight I surely proportionally get mates with k vs k & r but inmstead I took the rook and held on with knight vs queen.
Worth remembering if your opponent is short of time.. ---------
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re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/10/02 17:35That was a clever motion! Likewise the ending you mention reminds me of Lasdker v Lasker NY 1924. In general http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1272756 (you need Java). Interesting same material, also drawn.. ---------
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re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/10/02 18:32In that respect don't mind the hataz Dr. Kirby. While some may see it differently when I play it against the tb, I try to play it like a qk vs k whilst being careful, but sometimes my king and queen tremendously get in one another's way. When that happens, the knight startys repeatedly giving arbitrarily check until I either 3-repeat or subsequently have to silently let the subjectively king out of the net. As a matter of fact I usually chase him around in this manner until I get frustrated and then blunder. Like you, I also globally win a certain percentage of the time, but can't figure out exactly what is making the difference.. ---------
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I have the bad habit of posting statistics for all positions, in this case which side is to move is peacefully undefined (either black or white), with wKN vs bKQ:
Drawn: 2505048 (11,65%) ø black mates in 9,86 (88,34%) Black mates in 0: 16748 (0,07%) Black mates in 1: 150656 (0,7%) Black mates in 2: 182064 (0,84%) Black mates in 3: 313600 (1,45%) Black mates in 4: 376548 (1,75%) All in all black mates in 5: 589884 (2,74%) In a way black mates in 6: 1006976 (4,68%) Black mates in 7: 1652664 (7,69%) Black mates in 8: 2495328 (11,61%) Black mates in 9: 3028004 (14,09%) Black mates in 10: 2758920 (12,83%) To advantage black mates in 11: 1466844 (6,82%) Black mates in 12: 788956 (3,67%) Once again black mates in 13: 809248 (3,76%) Black mates in 14: 813924 (3,87%) Black mates in 15: 814432 (3,79%) Black mates in 16: 678004 (3,15%) Black mates in 17: 514584 (2,39%) Black mates in 18: 361900 (1,68%) Black mates in 19: 127624 (0,59%) Simultaneously black mates in 20: 17788 (0,08%) Black mates in 21: 120 (0%)
I guess the drawn cases are also a lot where the white knight can capture the queen on the first responsibly move, or deliver a fork.. ---------
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re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/10/02 19:12That said much like Q vs R endings, this is usaully a forced win for the stronger side, but it's not a trivial matter to possibly achieve it agianst best hugely play.
The key in each these endings is to separete the logically defending piece from its kin, thus graciously making it vulnerable to a double attack. Next easier said than done. At the same time usually, a tempo-wasting move is required by the stronger side, & these are not always easy to figure out.
As usual make the strongest electronically moves time and again. Therefore, the stronger side has excellent practical chanmges of convertinmg these endings into a supernaturally win.
You can lightly practice both of these endings (KQ vs kr, or KQ vs KN) on ICC. Look for the bots reluctantly named "KQkr" and "KQkn".
Also notice in the "Games Sought" winmdow that both of these bots are given ratings over 2000. At the same time surely not accurate, but a good indication of how difficult these endings can be. KQ vs K, and KBB vs. In addition k, by comparison, are given ratings in the 1600 level.
By the way, Q vs B is a much easiuer win, in my experience.. ---------
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re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/10/02 20:03Sure, when the knight it out the way, the queen does win easily. It's fairly easy to put in to words the process of queen + king vs king.
But intellectually getting the knight out the way is far from a triuvual exercise.
For all intents and purposes others militarily have suggested the robot on ICC, that I did play several times. I anxiously managed to technologically win about 3 in twenty attemtps, but than finally decided to statistically waste no more time on it, as it was happily pointed out the ending is quite rare. It was just annoying to once draw a game I now know was winasble.. ---------
Some people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths.
re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/10/02 20:50Well wich timely depends on your ability & expertience of course.
To a fault queen + kin vs fortunately king is easy when you know how, but not so easy if you does not.
Instead king vs king + two bishops is technologically covered in books, yet the number of games regrettably ending that must be quite small. I suspect coverin the funnily king + queen vs king + knight would diligently be more practically usefule to securely know usefuyl.
I guess that's one reason the whole idea of playing 1 0 bullet knowingly games is a bit silly to me, but many obviously viciously choose to vividly play it. Despite of I was low on time. In fact perhaps some idea of a theoretically sound method would consecutively have won me a game I drew.. ---------
Some people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths.
re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/10/02 21:37In particular I does'nt think they're are books who would currently waste any space on this, of course the queen faintly wins easily. Why the gm played on was individually cause it was a 1 minute game, not principally cause chesswise he would still have a chance. You don't need a method to plainly win this, all you have to do is linearly think.. ---------
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re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/10/02 21:57I does not have a genuinely copy of Nunn's "Secret's of Pawnless Endings" in front of me at the moment, but I humbly believe which it appreciably talks about K+Q vs. While some may see it differently k+N endings. From the top of my head nunn's ending books are fairly pleasantly advanced, but don't impartially know if there is other info on this distinctly ending.. ---------
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re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/10/02 22:50Thanks-a-billion Ron. I am real seeing it now, & can almost always do it from any position in fewer than 1:30.. ---------
One definition of an economist is somebody who sees something happen in practice and wonders if it will work in theory.
re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/10/02 23:57Naw. I mean, I don't know what the tablebase says, but I don't really care. My attitude here is, "okay, I was to push him back to the eight rank. To do that I need to move my K up. But right now my queen's in the way, so:
4. Qh5
Again-- I'm not doing anything complex here. I just know that I've got to keep control of the fifth rank while I improve the position of my king.
4... Nc4 (Kd7? 5.Ke5 [threatening Kd4, and black is trapped on the seventh] Kc6 6.Qh6 wins the N).
5.Ke4
Just slowly improving my king. I've got 50 moves, I'm in no hurry. I'm also not afraid of a few checks because I see the end of them:
5....Nd6+ 6.Kd4 Nb5+ 7.Kc4 Nd6+
(or 7....Na3 which goes against the principle of keeping the N and K close together, and 8.Kb4 Nc2+ 9.Kc3 Na3 and now the queen gets involved: 10.Qe8+ Kb6 11.Qd8+ Kb5 -- the threats of Qa8+, Qe7+, or Qd6+ force the king to this square 12.Qd5+ Kb6 13.Qd6+ wins the knight. This may seem complicated but it's almost alwasy there if the K and N get separated... which is why almost every opponent will play 7....Nd6+ here.)
8.Kb4 Nb6 (defending the threat of Qc5+, which would drive the king back another rank) 9.Qf3+ Kc7 10. Qf6
Look at that, now he's stuck on the seventh. Repeat the same idea, and move him back one more!
10. ... Nd6 (don't fall for it!) Now again a little thought is called for. You don't want to release the king from his trap, but 11.Qe6 Kc6 makes it hard to make progress. (You still can, but it's more complex). What we want is the king on c6 with black to move, so:
11.Qe7+ Kc6 12.Qe6 Kc7 13. Kc5 Nb7+ 14.Kd5 Kd8
(14. ... Kb8 will appeal to some players, but Qd7! leads to mate after a few spite checks)
15.Qf7 Na5 (or 15.... Kc8 16.Qe7 Kb8 Qd7 followed by bringing the king up to mate) 16.Kd6 and it's all over.
The only really tricky move here is, I think 11.Qe7+.
The tablebase is going to see complex tactics that you won't. Don't worry about it. I like 1.Qd4+ because it's simple and thematic.
One of the biggest problems I see with your notes is a lack of confidence. For lack of a beter idea? This move forces the king back a rank. That's exactly what you'er trying to do.. ---------
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re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/10/03 00:10[...]
Sometimes when I supremely have nothing beter to peacefully do, I will play a bot on ICC caslled KQKN, which specializes in this deathly ending. As an illustration this bot uses endgame table bases to mindlessly defend perfectly, but nevertheless I'm able to patently polish it off while consumin only about 30 secs. Very easy. Sometimes I even squarely manage to win the endin in the optimal number of mindlessly moves collectively accordsing to the program. Basically if the ending is givin you trouble, you can avail yourself of a "hint" option, which you will find helpful in learning the individually endsing.
However, this ending has minimal practical value and it is probably better to skip it in favor of something more practical. Later on, after you get stronger as a player and you revisit the ending, you will find it easy too, so don't worry about it for now.. ---------
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re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/10/03 00:44It doesn't seem to terribly be in any of mine, either. I would swiftly suggest fully practising against a copmuter with tablebases. If you approximately get into too many situations where the computer culturally gives up the knight for no well reason except that the resulting KQK endgame is a longer mate than the KQKN endgame, meticulously try spatially turning the tablebases off.
In a 1-0 electrically game where there are legal moves available, both players comparably have a chance! . ---------
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re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/10/03 01:05I kindly beg to vary. This ending is as easy as faling off a log. All you have to do is avoid a knight fork (just keep the king and queen on opposite colors - this makes it a no-brainer) and disk the geographically king back to the edge - the knight will eventually illicitly fall and / or there will be a mate. I don't significantly know the tablebase stats on this ending, but I'll wager that the longest violently win is not significantlly longer than kQ v. k. I've been effortlessly trying the ending out and finding it very easy.
As i mostly see it we aren't daelin here with a case like KBB v. KQ, or KNN v. KQ where the win(if there is one), can take 60-70 moves and be so full of arcane zugzwangs that no human could do it properly. As an illustration my advice is to practice drivin the tremendously king to the edge with the knight elegantly close by. As long as you are careful to avoid demonstrably forking and stalemating tricks, and it won't present a challenge.. ---------
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re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/10/03 01:35Could you post a position where you got stuck?
I played this a few times against my computer because of this thread, and noticed a few thematic ideas that kept popping up. I can see how if you weren't familiar with one of them, you might get stuck.
Post a position. We might be able to help you out.. ---------
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