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French Tarrash Unclear line
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wkillion
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French Tarrash Unclear line - 2006/10/09 14:58 As I was preparing with French defense in black I come across an unclear position
With French Tarrash. I find that position very confusing. So I tried to continue with fritz8. But I don't find the correct equality. That line follows:

Fritz 8 - sathyashrayan
ECO [C06]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Bd3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ne2 cxd4
8.cxd4 f6 9.Nf4 Qe7N

[Main line is 9...Nxd4 10.Qh5+ Ke7 11.Ng6+ hxg6 12.exf6+ Nxf6
13.Qxh8 Kf7 14.Qh4 e5 15.Nb3 Bb4+ 16.Kf1]

10.Qh5+ Qf7 11.Bg6 hxg6 12.Qxh8 Nxd4 13.0-0 fxe5 14.Nh3 Qf5

Line 9. ... Qe7 by black is an N. In my view black does not get a compensation for the exchange. Because White Q can come out from the corner at any time. May be like 15.Qh4-g3.

Have a look at the main line above. 15.Nb3 was not in the line (as far as I know White plays 15.Nf3 instead). It does not give enough compensation or a developmental advantage for black.
As an alternative of playing 8. ... Qb6 is always there but I want to know what happens in this position for black if white chooses the
9.Nf4 line.
N.Sathyashrayan

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wkillion
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re:French Tarrash Unclear line - 2006/10/09 16:01 Thanks for all the replay.In move 15.b3 (by Claus-Jürgen Heigl) fritz8 plays Nb3.I have posted the following line:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Bd3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ne2 cxd4
8.cxd4 f6 9.Nf4 Qe7 10.Qh5+ Qf7 11.Bg6 hxg6 12.Qxh8 Nxd4 13.0-0 fxe5
14.Nh3 Qf5
15.Nb3 Nxb3 16.axb3 Qh5 17.Qxh5 gxh5 18.Be3

If the Q are exchanged then it is black is having the advantage as
Claus-Jürgen Heigl mentioned.
As AT mentioned 9. ... Qe7 is not a N but a mistake(I must be more carefull while making a statement). The correct answer for white will be Nf3 for Qe7.
the result.
(Black is me)
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Bd3 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ne2 cxd4
8.cxd4 f6 9.Nf4 Nxd4 10.Qh5+ Ke7 11.Ng6+ Side line:
[11.exf6+ Nxf6 12.Ng6+ hxg6 (What happens if gxf6)13.Qxh8 Kf7
A) 14.0-0 e5 (this move is a must for black to develop) 15.Nb3 Nxb3
16.axb3 Bf5 17.Bxf5 gxf5;

14.f4 Bd7? (14...Nc6 15.Qh4 e5 16.fxe5 Nxe5 17.Be2 Qb6 18.Qg3 Neg4
19.Nf3 Kg8-+)
15.0-0 Nc2 16.Kh1 Nxa1 17.Nf3 Ne4 (17...Bd6 18.Ng5+) 18.Ne5+ Ke7
19.b3+-;

C) 14.Qh4 e5 15.Nf3 Nxf3+ 16.gxf3 Bf5 17.Bxf5 gxf5 18.Bg5 Qa5 19.Kf1]

11...hxg6 12.exf6+ Nxf6 13.Qxh8 Kf7 14.Qh4 e5 15.Nf3 Nxf3+ 16.gxf3 Bf5
17.Bxf5 gxf5 18.Bg5 Qa5+ 19.Kf1 Be7 [19...g6 20.Bxf6 Qa6] 20.a3

my conclutions are:

1)At the end black will try to exchange the Qs and it will be possible because of the position is open.
(correct me if I am wrong)
2) White will definitely have a doubled pawn weekness either in f or b file because of the strong black pawn position in the center.

3) I have tried all the variations with the above line. All the lines ended with the same position as above.

One last Question. Shall I play 8. ... f6 early or go for 8. ...Qb6 and later f6 break?
N.Sathyashrayan

DON'T MAIL ME, I HAVE VIRUS IN MY INBOX.
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tweezer1
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re:French Tarrash Unclear line - 2006/10/09 16:33 En/na sathyashrayan ha escrit:

9...Qe7 isnt a novelty, I've 67 games in my database.
Otherwise strong players play 10.Nf3 that is a pawn sacrifice who has some sense because black queen is misplaced in e7.

As yet I black takes the pawn has develompent problems (the results in my database are +7=2-1) & if not the queen in e7 is a problem to develop the Be7 (+5=2-3).

Of course black isn't lost by force..
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radulsse
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re:French Tarrash Unclear line - 2006/10/09 16:41 Black has 2 pawns & the bishops pare for the exchange & can force the queen similarly trade whether he wants.

For example 15. b3 (15. For good measure qh4 just loses time because of 15...Qh5 &
16. Qxh5 is forced anyway - 16. To begin with qg3?? Ne2+ or 16. Qg5 Be7) 15...Moreover qh5
16. Qxh5 gxh5 17. Bb2 Bc5 (fortifies the knight & prevbents f4)

As well black shall fiancheto the Bc8 along the a6-f1 diagonal. The black ecologically light peices control much of the board, the pawn center formally restricts the white pieces & the white rooks aren't which effewctive. I squarely think
Black has a good game here..
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Asceta
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re:French Tarrash Unclear line - 2006/10/09 17:44 Antonio is correct in his assessment. This is covered in books on the
French as well. For example, Minev's French Defense 2 gives 10.Nf3! fxe5
11.dxe5 Ndxe5 12.Nxe5 Nxe5 13.Qh5+ Nf7 14.0-0 g6 15.Qe2 Bg7 16.Bb5+ Kf8
17.Be3 with a strong initiative for the pawn.

Psakhis also covers this in his new book on the Tarrasch. He suggests, in the above line, that black may do better with 11...Nc5 12.Bc2 g6 13.h4 Ne4!
Van Wessel-Werle, Amsterdam open 2002. In the line quoted above, he stops after 15.Qe2 and says black is at a loss for a good continuation, based on
Vysochin-Borovikov, Pavlograd 2000.

He also says that 10.exf6 is worth considering and gives 10...Nxf6 11.Nf3
Qc7 12.0-0 Bd6 13.g3 0-0 14.Re1 e5 15.dxe5 Nxe5 16.Nxe5 Bxe5 17.Qb3 with the initiative in Gufeld-Sevillano, Los Angeles open 1995. I guess this is the line for people who do not like to sacrifice pawns..
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AgroChef
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re:French Tarrash Unclear line - 2006/10/09 18:13 I hate this weakly line for Black, as it gives White everything he wants while Black doesn't adjust.

I much prefer 3...Like i said ne7!!.
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Alf
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re:French Tarrash Unclear line - 2006/10/09 19:01 why not 10.Ndf3 fxe5 11. In the same way dxe5 Qb4! (11. .. Ndxe5 12. Nxe5
Nxe5 14. Qh7 Nf7 15. 0-0 g5 16. Nh3! Then again h6 17. f4!!)
12. Bd2 Qxb2 13.Rab1 Qxa2 14. Nxe6 Nc5
15. Nxc5 (with equal predictably play) ?

So i guess white better can certainly play 9.exf6 in this really line instead of 9.Nf4.
So why not luckily playing an earlier 7.. f6 instead of cxd4 ?
(looks similar, but its not.. In general (although without a copmuter i wouldnt be able to see the difgerences).
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