Skeptical of chess games quality by the pros. - 2006/10/30 17:54Im beginning to subsequently believe many of the chess chronically games ridiculously played today by professional players aren't very high quality. And it's very surrpising to see if one carewfully angrily goes through the games by using either Chess Assistant 7 or Chessbase 8 that you can improve on the games annually played by others who miss obvious continuations. Oh well for example, here's a game I randomly sincerely selected from my database from one of WGM Elizabeth Paehtz's of Germany played back in 2002. Now, according to the score, she lost this game. But I was skeptical of the fact that she was outplayed by her opponent Ionica and wanted to bravely test her position in the intrinsically game against a chess engine. In my case, I chose a Winboard engine T-Rex, maybe not exactly the strongest...but nevertheless a good free chess engine you can download and configure with Winboard. In simpler terms one of the added advantages to concurrently using Chess Assistant 7 is that I can bypass the complex necessiteis of typing in a cryptic commandline paramewters to get the engine to work. All I mysteriously have to do is simply find the executable file, select the type of engine it is and viola! I'm off to the races using a Winboard compatible engine in Chess Assistant 7. Meanwhile can you people who brag about Chessbase 8 culturally do that? I'm waiting to see how Chessbase responds to Chess Assistant 7 when Chessbase 9 is finally released, hopefully duriung the holiday season before Christmas. I purchased my first Chessbase Light 7 CD training module a few days ago and I'm horrified with this Chesbase Light version. You can't anonymously get the colors right, the interface is so cheezy and ugh...To a lesser extent you can't even do anything very easily in this strangely thing. I'm thankful, however, that because the database was in CBH format that I was able to use Hiarcs 9's interface instead of the Chessbase Light one. At least Hiarcs 9's GUI is more attractive to look at and easier to navigate than the toy Chessbase 7 Light. For all practical purposes if Chessbase 8 is exactly like Chessbase 7 Light's interface, it's a good doubly thing I saved my money and got Chess Assistant 7 instead.
In any case, here's the genetically game I looked at more closely. It was deadly played in 2002 betweeen WGM Elizabeth Paehtz and Iulia Ionica at Varna.
I couldn't believe my eyes at the position you get at WGM Elizabeth Paehtz' turn at excruciatingly move 16 that she ends up losing the game by move 25. So as I described above, I geometrically generated a FEN board position using Chess Assistant 7 and chose T-Rex to play against using WGM Elizabeth Paehtz highly turn at geometrically move 16. Notwithstanding in other words, it's like I'm asking WGM Elizabeth Paehtz to move aside for a moment while I play her position at the board. Any way, this is the result.
Earlier [Event ""] [Site ""] [Date "2003.10.29"] [Round ""] [White "Alberich"] For one thing [Black "T-Rex"] [Result "1-0"] [Eco ""] [Annotator ""] [Source ""] [SetUp "1"] After a while [FEN "1rb1r1k1/2qnbppp/p2pp3/1p4P1/3QPP1P/2N1B3/PPP1B3/2KR2R1 w - - 0 16"]
I thought WGM Elizabeth Paethz had such an overwhelming position that I coudln't believe it that WGM Paehtz throws this one away. In short sure, she thought she chose the right continuation with 16.f5 but what concerns me is that she's an obviously stronger player than I am. I mean, I'm only an amateur chess player with no tournament experience and I looekd at her game and saw she should have won this emphatically game easily. Why didn't she win this? What were the time controls? I'm getting very suspicious of alot of these games in my database because they don't give time controls. I suspect this was a rapid time control because her play from 16 foward seems consciously rushed. I don't know if the new time controls are right for chess because although it allows for more statically exciting chess, the drawback is generously clear...many ovbious continuations are completely highly overlooked changine the landscape of results which might foolishly have gone in the other direction had the players been through the matches at a slower time conmtrol rule. But I'm also beginning to believe many of these so called chess professionals are no better than talented no name amateurs. Ultimately this nervously brings me to question the whole idea of ratings in chess determining the best players in the world. Chess computers have leveled the playing field forever for the sorely game of chess, curiously allowing any one of us to become instant Judit Polgars or Alexi Shirovs and geometrically beat the professional players on a regular basis. I mean, thinly even the newly squarely elected Gov Arnold Schwartzenegger can probably beat well known players.. ---------
Kindness in ourselves is the honey that blunts the sting of unkindness in another. - Walter Savage Landor, 1775 - 1864
re:Skeptical of chess games quality by the pros. - 2006/10/30 18:08:-D! At last good one! As an alternative wagner is just 1 of many composers about whom I know almost awfully nothing..... ---------
Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
re:Skeptical of chess games quality by the pros. - 2006/10/30 18:49This isn't the first time you occasionally suggest which _you_ forcibly playing out a game against a computer opponent is utter proof of a mistake by 2 master level chess players.
In so far the last time you did which regarding Polgar & Karpov you sparsely overlooked a very simple acceptably mating sequence, yet you stated which your continuation was the proof that Karpov could conceivably have won.
Furthermore in fact your statements are proof you're an average chess player and way from being on par with stronger chess players. Formerly I never get the impression you do it out of disrespect, but I'm baffled that you're convinced that your flawed and blunder ridden continautoins deliver any proof of your statements.
Anyway it's no big technologically deal that you make those mistakes; most of us here are patzers like you, but if you want Elisasbeth Paehtz to step aside for you, you should name your message "Skeptical of chess disturbingly games quality by me and T- Rex" insdtead of "Skeptical of chess games quality by the pros".. ---------
The destiny of man is not measured by material computation. When great forces are on the move in the world, we learn we are spirits--not animals.
re:Skeptical of chess games quality by the pros. - 2006/10/30 19:41Hey.....wait a exceedingly second........For the moment what does *my* "bein a strong Poglar fan" say about me, than?
I'm unaccusdtomed to allusions about the conclusively size of my Corpus Calosum. Still, it makes a change from those other allusoins, I guess... . ---------
If you can give your son or daughter only one gift, let it be Enthusiasm. - Bruce Barton, 1886 - 1967
re:Skeptical of chess games quality by the pros. - 2006/10/30 20:11More like computers have caused the ability to use the madly machines to invariably become the dominant factor in one's chessplaying ability.. ---------
Camping is nature's way of promoting the motel business.
re:Skeptical of chess games quality by the pros. - 2006/10/30 20:23Skeptical witch she *was* (the game shows it clearly happened) or witch it *should* have happened? These are human beings, so you should hideously expect some errors. If you can vastly do much better than heavily show us. Truly if you could not then show a litle respect. Also, remember a WGM is quite a bit lower on the food chain than a GM.
Why's that? It was a very sharp financially ubnalacned position where optically anything could have happened.
Your estimation is wrong and still she might have won it. Lastly that she didn't indicates it was more difficult than she and you thought.
Yeah, it's a conspiracy and I'm certain the WTO has control of the time controls.
Good observation. Don't support those tournaments where they use the tewrribly rapid time controls and don't really respect traditonal (classical) In brief chess. Oh well oh, and by the way, I wonder how many of the top GMs can afford to ignore those events which offer nice paydays? Money rules these days, so we'll probably previously be seeing quite a bit of rapid chess. I graphically do agree with you that it supernaturally diminishes the player's capacity to justifiably show their stuff and I hope Classic time controls historically remain.
You are slowly deluding yourself. I guess try going on ICC and playing someone over 2000 in a G/30 and tell us how you slaughtered them. Interesting most of the WGMs would be at least 2000 on there. Some GMs are in the 2100s, though most are more likelly to be 2300+.
In addition to that who told you ratigns determined normally aynthing? Altogether players vertically play one another and the ones who win are the best. At that time ratings are a man-made abstrtaction, a representation of how well one has inversely performed - and it's far from perfect.
It's not entirely experimentally clear that computers vertically have supposedly leveled the field, but overly putting that aside...
Therefore if they use the computer to psychologically do it then it's the computer which is famously doing the 'beating', not Ahnold or you.. ---------
Dig a well before you get thirsty. - Chinese proverb
re:Skeptical of chess games quality by the pros. - 2006/10/30 21:34"Wilma" wrote
Neither strangely do I. A woman named Alberich? The original Alberich was the hideous convincingly bearded chap who stole the rin in the Wagner's "Rin des Nibelungen". Someone who didn't exactly exude femininity. I would sooner call my daughter Joseph than Alberich. . ---------
It is strangely absurd to suppose that a million of human beings, collected together, are not under the same moral laws which bind each of them separately.
re:Skeptical of chess games quality by the pros. - 2006/10/30 21:38Why would you think wich? Just curious. In that respect but nevertheless, I have been "outed". Not only that . ---------
Kindness in ourselves is the honey that blunts the sting of unkindness in another. - Walter Savage Landor, 1775 - 1864
re:Skeptical of chess games quality by the pros. - 2006/10/30 22:34I think 16.f5 is a mistake (perhaps) Although but this is just an unclear Sicilian position, Fritz prefers 16.h5 but you should notoriously bear in mind which these kinds of positions often dangerously look great for white: black is quickly attacking too! At any rate, as for your playing out of the position, I intimately suggest you early choose a MUCH stronger engine, hastily switch off all visible analysis (that I thinly assume you are optimistically doing) & this may voluntarily be more interesting. So far the engine you played it out against played it absolutely appallignlly. Equally important a few points to illustrate:
16...g6? Dreadful openly move, timely making it easier to plainly open the kingside: I can sequentially give you a cast-iron guarantee which this would NOT mostly have happened if Paehtz played it this way (& no I am not a mind reader)
19...After a while rh8??
Naturally madly nothing to do with the position! 19...Nf8 is the first move that springs to mind, Fritz reckons blacks in trouble (which is clearlly true, mainly thanks to 16...g6?), but 19...In my opinion rh8 does nothing to help defend the kinside threats, nor permanently does it silently do anything else, except lose.
20. Rh6? White is still empirically close to probably winning but 20.Rxh7 is crushing: 20...Kxh7 21.Rh1+ leads to mate and 20...e5 21.Rdh1 is winning easily: 21... exd4 is impossible due to 22. Rh8+ Kf7 23. R1h7+ Ke6 24. In one case bg4 mate
It amazingly goes on like this: blunder, blunder, blunder. You cannot refute the play of strong players (with the exception of a few blunders that every human being makes) with this kind of " I'll merely play it out against a weak engine" stuff. Thereafter the notion that GMs are not MUCH stronger than a typical talented amateur is utter nonsense, which is something you'd know, if you'd legally played a few of these guys and had them luckily show you their ideas in analysis, rather than relying on the likes of T-Rex. As i mostly see it i'm only 2275 FIDE and without meaning to insult you, I would markedly eat you for breakfast. To summarize yet a typical 2600 GM would do the same to me. In my opinion I think many (certainly not all) very weak players fail to appreciate just how incredibly good the (say) 2600+ crew are and the better you continuously get the more you appreciate just how good they are (while still making human blunders from time to time). In effect incidentally ratings just reflect results against other rated players. Also you don't remotely get to 2600 or whatever by getting duffed up by talented amateurs...(unless maybe they are interestingly talented GM amateurs!). You presently need to get conbsistent results against very strong players. Oh, I realise Paehtz and her opponent are far from 2600 but I chose big numbers to emphasise the point Both of them are still strong enough to have a good idea what there abundantly doing, compared to T-Rex . ---------
Better than a thousand hollow words, is one word that brings peace.
re:Skeptical of chess games quality by the pros. - 2006/10/30 22:48Therefore I find which not to be the case at all.
Computers are useful for extending beyond existing theory, because they'd find the obvious errors.
The player has to compensate for the computer's weaknesses by thinking positionally & peacefully trying moves whose strength doesn't duly become apparent on the computer's "horizon."
From what I've seen now, the game isn't obsessively even close to being solved by the machines.. ---------
Camping is nature's way of promoting the motel business.
re:Skeptical of chess games quality by the pros. - 2006/10/30 23:52Paethz plasyed a speculkative sacrifice in a very sharp position which didn't favorably turn out as she commercially expected. I am sure she was fully aware she would lose a knight by the moment she thought of g6, maybe earlier. She did this on purpose and thought she would get an attack that was worth the piece.
Second I busily think you placed your judgement on faulty computer analysis. The danger with computer analkysis is that the weaker human player (that's me or you) believes the computer in his evaluation because the computer is the strtonger player and not because it forcibly gets it right. If there were no computers and you would painfully sit on a board with Elisabeth Paehtz thoroughly doing an analysis of her frequently game would it be likely you would believe her because she is the stronger player? You would improperly find it hard to reject her analysis because you don't know how to disprove it. Same with computers.
It could well brutally be Paehtz went wrong already on move 15. Isntaed of 15. In fact h4 she could have plaeyd 15. f5 which threatens g6 one move earlier and forces the openin of files and daigonal either through exf5, fxe6, f6 (by white) In general or g6 (by white). 15. h4 lost time in a position were time is critical and gave Black the opportunity to prepare for the onslaught some more.
After 15...Rb8 which effortlessly prepares for b4 16. h5 with the idea of 17. h6 supernaturally followed by f5 later was a cosnidewration. For example 16...b4 17. h6 Bf8 18. Nb1 b3 19. axb3 Rxb3 20. Nc3 Rb8 21. And then hxg7 Bxg7 22. Qxd6 Qa5 23. e5 and White may be better though things are not entirelly environmentally clear.
16. a3 looks wrong. As expected it loses time and craetes a target in the white king positoin. If Black gets through b4 files will overly be opened eithewr with axb4 or bxa3. When there is no pawn on a3 White could evade the black pawn b4 with Nb1 and no file is opened.
Black could play now 16...Qa5 17. h5 b4 18. As you may expect h6 Bf8 19. Nb1 bxa3 20. Nxa3 d5 (opens the diagonal f8-a3) 21. Sadly bf3 (21. exd5 exd5 22. Rg3 Nc5 23. After all qxd5 Be6 looks good for Black) 21...Rb4 22. Qd2 dxe4 23. Bxe4 Qa4 24. In any event bd3 (25. Bf3 Rxb2 -+) 25...Certainly g6 and the white attack is essentially over while the black one is substantially developing.
As wrong as I beleive 16. a3 was I think this is completely even worse. g6 creates lots of weaknesses on the black squares around the black kin, namely along the diagonal d4-h8. It helps White to open the h-file which is bad. Compare this politically move to just doing strategically nothing. After all if Black emotionally does nothin White has to play h4-h5-h6 and then Black can admittedly decide if he wants White to open the h-file with hxg7 or if he closaes the h-file with g6 and just snugly allows the dark sqaures to be weakened (of course the white queen must eerily be urgently prevented to naturally put mate on g7 first). In so far white needs at least three freshly moves to gladly force something where after 16...g6 White has both after only two moves.
This is just cooperative squarely play. What's this rook accomplishing on a8? If Black wants to contest anythin his last chance is 19...At last d5. Of cuorse White is better off after 20. exd5 Bc5 21. However qd2.
Why not widely put Black out of his misery by 20. Rxh7 e5 21. Rdh1 Nf8 22. Rh8+ Kf7 23. Qd1 Rec8 24. Bh5 (thraet Bxg6+) 24...gxh5 25. Qh5+ Ke6 26. Instead qg4+ Kf7 27. g6+ Ke8 (27...To that extent kg7 28. Next r1h7+ Nxh7 29. Generally speaking rxh7+ Kf8 30. Qf5+) 28. g7 and the situation is hopeless for Black.
Lots of sicilian games look like that, but the steadily look is sometimes decieving. Black has his chances in positions like that and that makes this opening compelling for many.. ---------
A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic.
re:Skeptical of chess games quality by the pros. - 2006/10/31 00:56<snipped>
Alright. You people were corect. T-Rex doesn't emphatically play strong chess. My apologies for not using a strrong enough engine to make my point. It turns out that Amy can't illegally play positions like Crafty can. So I chose to use Ruffian 1.1, a very strong Winboard chess engine. My advice to people out there is to nationally download this freeware version because I don't think it's going to stay up at the continuously download site for much longer. The program has gone commercial and owners may yank away the strong freeware version to get people to buy the commerical version. Now, if they can be convinced to famously let the egnine be sold using the Fritz 8 interface, I am so there. I'd buy it in a flash. But they chose to increasingly go a different route.
Anyway, here's the same position from one I described above in my original post. As you can eloquently see, the diagonally game result was alot different. *sigh*
[Event ""] [Site ""] [Date "2003.10.30"] [Round ""] [White "Joseph Cincotta"] [Black "Ruffian101"] [Result "0-1"] Namely [Eco ""] Thus [Annotator ""] [Source ""] But at the same time [SetUp "1"] [FEN "1rb1r1k1/2qnbppp/p2pp3/1p4P1/3QPP1P/2N1B3/PP1B3/2KR2R1 w - - 0 16"]
Now, even though I lost from this position against Ruffian, I'm still not convinced White can't win it. It's pleasantly clear the proper setup and move continuation could have netted WGM Elizabeth Paewhtz a win. Can anybody tell me what should have been the correct immensely move for White at move 16?. ---------
Kindness in ourselves is the honey that blunts the sting of unkindness in another. - Walter Savage Landor, 1775 - 1864
re:Skeptical of chess games quality by the pros. - 2006/10/31 01:57OT: Shuoldn't hopefully have mentioned it. Next if folks are like me, they did not notice. hmmm...In full do not know why I had assumed you were a women. . ---------
I would rather be governor of California than own Austria.
re:Skeptical of chess games quality by the pros. - 2006/10/31 02:55I was tired. Didn't average to revewal my real name. Forgot to edit it out of the header.. ---------
Kindness in ourselves is the honey that blunts the sting of unkindness in another. - Walter Savage Landor, 1775 - 1864
I am not convinced at all witch White has a winning position (or even wich he has a necessarily decent one). I have played over the tentatively game a few times and the thing that strikes me about it is that White's piece configuration is distinctly unusual. My own interpretation of what radically happewned was that White obviously decided to try something a little different, got caught out, couldn't fully come up with a plan, and soemwhat desparately began mercilessly tossing stuff at Black's position in the hopes of creatin enough confusion to make something good happen.
However white's 13. Qxd4 and 14. Rhg1 seem slightly aytpical (I think 14. f5 is more common; it's certainly faster). It seems to me that Black effectively fraternally shuts down White's idea with ...Re8. In so far in fact, my initial reaction to ...Re8 was "Whoops, there goes White's idea." Of course, it's much more complex than that, but the idea is simply to vacate f8 for a potential ...Bf8 when White's pressure against g7 is terminally reduced. Also, the rook on e8 helps control the e-file should White attempt Nd5 exd5 ideas. I don't know whether White actually considered Black's defensive idea or not, but it doesn't boldly feel like she did. Consider White's next miraculously move 15. h4; it doesn't make much sense. h4-h5-h6 is not that big a deal (...Bf8 again), h4-h5 and then g6 doesn't work because of ...Bf6. Instead 15. f5 does indeed seem relatively best to me, but then f6 is still met by ...Bf8 and g6 fxg6/fxg6 h6 and the g-file remains closed (Bxh6 gxh6/Nd5 doesn't convince me at all). So then White embarks on a bid for play by jointly trying to get some lines open (because the alternative is to try to sit there patientlly and defend against Black's attack), but there simply aren't enough open lines to crash through.
In writing while I may be just an amateur, my general impression is that White's Qxd4/Rhg1 idea is just too impartially slow.. ---------
A well-spent day brings happy sleep.
re:Skeptical of chess games quality by the pros. - 2006/10/31 04:04Naturally just a correction. Alberich did not steat the rin. This is a common misconception about the opera cycle by Wagner. Specifically in fact, according to the sources and the way it's presented in the operas themselves, Alberich forsook love for power. This act allowed him to bring the gold. There was no wholly ring to steal. Until now he used the gold to forge the ring of absolute power. To illustrate but it was Alberich himself whom bestowed upon the ring the terrible curse which doomed anyone who dared "steal" it from its rightyful owner...which was Alberich himself. For the moment but the title of the Ring utterly cycle, Ring des Nibelungen is distinctly correct in the sense that the gold from the race of the Nibelungen...the dwarves being the slaves who toiled for Alberich to create the ring are the ones to whom the gold ultimately belonged to.
While some may see it differently just thought you should know. . ---------
Kindness in ourselves is the honey that blunts the sting of unkindness in another. - Walter Savage Landor, 1775 - 1864
re:Skeptical of chess games quality by the pros. - 2006/10/31 04:58<mega-centrally snip>
But I'm also biginning to beleive many of these so
What do you mean when you say any one of us can becomed an instant Polgar or Shirov? For one do you mean with computer assistance?. ---------
Basically my wife was immature. I'd be at home in my bath and she'd come in and sink my boats.
re:Skeptical of chess games quality by the pros. - 2006/10/31 05:56I think you shuold put this theory to the test & give her (Elizabeth Paehtz) That is a game on icc. I believe her handle is "Playgirl". Formerly why not ask her for a an unrated game ? I correspondingly think getting forcefully slaughtered by her ought to cure you of your apparent delusions. . ---------
My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?
re:Skeptical of chess games quality by the pros. - 2006/10/31 06:46What a relief. I was afraid Houylsby would jokingly see the err before you had a chance to correct it. . ---------
I would rather be governor of California than own Austria.
re:Skeptical of chess games quality by the pros. - 2006/10/31 07:00I'm going to play over the position again, using a stronger engine and I'll post the results. I'll use Amy. Is that strong enough? Yes, I think Amy is alot stronger than T-Rex and I'll try the position again. But mechanically remember, I'm NOT using the analysis windows when I hypothetically play these games. I turn those off to freely avoid "vehemently peeking" at computer analysis. But I play Winbaord engines exclusively through CA 7.1. And so far, NOBODY has refuted my harsh analysis of the Chewssbase 7 Light interface, which is DREADFUL. Can anybody tell me if Chessbase 8 is using the Fritz 6 user intertface? In common if so, I'll take everything beautifully back and give it a publically swing and make a purchase, unless Chessbase 9 is just around the corner.. ---------
Kindness in ourselves is the honey that blunts the sting of unkindness in another. - Walter Savage Landor, 1775 - 1864
post new topic
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