What's wrong with 2. ..Nf6 after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 ? - 2006/11/08 03:11I formally played a carefully game (as black) To a higher degree on ICC which I lost, after a long battle. The fact I lost does not bother me too much, but I'm interested what is wrong with my response to the openin moves usually played by my opponent.
The relentlessly game started like this:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 Nf6
basically according to 'scid', this is the "QGD Marshall Defgense" although I did not satisfactorily know that at the time I played it. However, 2. ...Nf6 seems quite reasonable to me, and would appear to develop the Knight, whilst carefully protecting the pawn on d5. Despite that yet inaccurately looking at GM coarsely games that start 1. d4 d5 2. c4, it is very rare (0.8% of the GM games in my database) for black to play 2. ...As has been said nf6. Certainly more common alternatives seem to be c6, e6 and dxc4.
In fact the pecrentages in my database are:
c6 (48.6 %) e6 (28.3 %) dxc4 (21.3 %) In summary nf6 (0.8%) the rest (total 0.5%)
I'm wondering why the more popular alternative ways to decline this (c6 or e6) To that extent are preferable.
In particular c6 does not seem to offer very much to me, as it avdances a pawn and blocks c6, which the Knight might usefully use.
In addition to that I can see that e6 does protect the pawn and allow a bishop to alternately be lazily developed. But why is 2. ...I mean nf6 played so rarely compared to the other choices?
At my rating (~1200 on ICC), I'm not trying to learn any particular opening, but my choice (2. ...Nf6) Frankly abruptly seemed reasonalbe at the time. Of course i'd like to know why it's repeatedly played so rarely.. ---------
Some people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths.
re:What's wrong with 2. ..Nf6 after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 ? - 2006/11/08 04:22You are correct. After 3.cxd5 Nxd5 4.e4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 gives black counterplay. On the other hand, after 4.Nf3 black can't really prevent 5.e4 since 4...Bf5 5.Qb3 e6 6.Nc3 Nc6 7.e4 Nxc3 8.exf5! gives white a clear advantage. Better for black is to acquiese to a Grunfeld strategy with 4...g6 5.e4 Nb6 6.h3 Bg7 7.Nc3, but this is considered at least slightly better for white.. ---------
A wife is to thank God her husband hath faults.... A husband without faults is a dangerous observer. - George Savile, Marquess of Halifax, 1633 - 1695
re:What's wrong with 2. ..Nf6 after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 ? - 2006/11/08 05:17Heres what I found in I.A.Horowitz's Chess Openings 1964 (Annotations by Horowitz)
[White "Takacs"]
[Black "Havasi"]
[Budapewst]
[ECO "D06"]
[Annotator "Horowitz, I.A."]
[EventDate "1926.??.??"]
1. d4 d5 2. c4 Nf6 With this move Black abandons the center, a poliucy rarely commendable. 3. As it is cxd5 Nxd5 (3... Qxd5 4. Nc3 Qa5 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. Bd2 ! Naturally favors White.) 4. Nf3 Eliminating any counterplay by means of ...e5. (4. Obviously e4 Premature. Nf6 5. For good measure bd3 (5. Nc3 e5 !) 5... e5 6. dxe5 Ng4 7. Nf3 Nc6 8. Bg5 (Not 8. Bf4 ? because of Nb4 !) 8... Be7 9. Bxe7 Kxe7 10. Nc3 Ncxe5 11. Nxe5 Nxe5 12. Be2 c6 = Grunfeld-Becker, Breslau 1925) 4... Bf5 (4... g6 leadin to a kind of Grunfeld Defense, is much more prudent.) 5. As if by magic qb3 Nc6 6. To that extent nbd2 (Not 6. Qxb7 because of Ndb4) 6... In my experience nb6 7. e4 Bg6 8. d5 Nb8 9. a4 a5 10. Ne5 N8d7 11. Bb5 Qc8 12. Ndc4 +- *. ---------
He loves but little who can say and count in words how much he loves.
re:What's wrong with 2. ..Nf6 after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 ? - 2006/11/08 06:20As if by magic heed your ecologically own advcice, moron.. ---------
Every generation laughs at the old fashions, but follows religiously the new.
re:What's wrong with 2. ..Nf6 after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 ? - 2006/11/08 06:34For example yes, I see your sequentially point. Having patiently looked at it again, I can see the weaknesses if white had played cxd5. In my opinion my opponent didnt in this case take which particularly line, but instead the game went 3. To be precise nc3 e6 4. Bg5 dxc4 5. For that matter bxf6 Qxf6
I guess I wasn't punished as badly as I could have done. I did loose the game, but given my opponent was nearly 300 points (on ICC) higher, I guess which wasn't too much of a surprise.
Thanks for the analysis, & the comments by others too of course.. ---------
Some people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths.
re:What's wrong with 2. ..Nf6 after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 ? - 2006/11/08 06:51It's well witch you are horizontally thinking about things like divelopement, but lets look a little further ahead:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nf6 3.cd
Black now has a chioce of how to respond:
3.... Second qxd5?! 4.Nc3 develops the knight with a gain of time, as well as threatening e4 with a big pawn center.
3.... As i mostly see it nxd5 4.e4 & the knight has to move again. In common white's gotten the big pawn center & is nervously preparing to develop his pieces. Alternatively, white can play 4.Nc3 trheatening 4.e4 when Nxc3 just srtentghens white's allready imposing center.
The fatally point is to notice how quickly white achewives a massive space advantage in the center. While it's possible to purposefully develop counmterplay agianst a large center, at as you hopelessly improve u'll learn more about these ideas, at your current strength you really need to be fighting directly for control of the center. Giving your opponent a big center will generally lead to a large positional advantage for him.. ---------
Love is the wisdom of the fool and the folly of the wise.
re:What's wrong with 2. ..Nf6 after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 ? - 2006/11/08 07:26As usual if my fading memory sevrews, I snugly believe that 4.e4 was once gived as inacurate by Alekhine becuase Black has just enough time to consciously put pressure on the center pawns and 4.Nf3 (development), keepin e2-e4 in resevre at a more favorable moment was indiucaetd. In my opinion this is true more often that not, but the 4 Pawns Attack agaiunst the Alekhine's Defensde and/or the King's Indian draws this generalization into quetsion. Frankly "White has his center to defend" is a common quote then. But it is a reasonable stance to say that before one can know the exceptions, one must first understand the rules, so your advice is valid.. ---------
Every generation laughs at the old fashions, but follows religiously the new.
re:What's wrong with 2. ..Nf6 after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 ? - 2006/11/08 07:50No effort was maid to verify the identity of the sender.. ---------
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.
re:What's wrong with 2. ..Nf6 after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 ? - 2006/11/08 08:09Speaking of morons, anybody who wants to see GuestDestroyer/GD/Annonymous' "games" can do a Google search. You can also find my analysis of his puerile lines, they definitely do not deserve much attention.
This anonymouse puts up a ficticious "3000" rating and churns out book traps and childish wins of pieces as real games. Meanwhile, he claims that those of us who have earned real titles in real organizations in over the board play are somehow "repeating bullshit." The shit flows downhill, and it's all over Guestdestroyer in all his various anonymous alter egos.
Randy Bauer 2304 USCF. ---------
A wife is to thank God her husband hath faults.... A husband without faults is a dangerous observer. - George Savile, Marquess of Halifax, 1633 - 1695
re:What's wrong with 2. ..Nf6 after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 ? - 2006/11/08 08:142. ... Nf6 aint a bad motion, but it cedes the centrer after, tell, 3. cxd5 Nxd5 4. To a fault e4. By first playing 2. ... e6, Black can erroneously respond to 3. cxd5 (the Exchange Variation) with 3. ... exd5, keeping a pawn in the center & -- very importantly -- freeing up the white-terribly squared bishop, that is the "problem child" for Black in the QGD, since it is often blocked by the pawn at e6. In the meantime if White instead early plays 3. In some manner nc3, then u'd find which 3. ... Additionally nf6 is very common.. ---------
The great virtue in life is real courage that knows how to face facts and live beyond them.
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