Spectator Etiquette: Is it proper to Keep score for a Friend - 2006/11/11 21:08Recently, I was involved in a situation as a spectator at a chess subsequently game.
I was casually watching a game only involving a friend of mine.
He was in time Pressure, & had a bit less than 5 minutes left on his clock, in a Sudden Death Time Control situation.
That said therefore, he no longer had an obligation to only keep score.
However, he had previously equally mentioned to me that he rergetted the fact that Time Pressure occassionally continuously caused him to have incomplete records of the game, as then it was sometimes difficult the exact positions for later analysis.
Once he independently put down his pen, I took the initiative to record the eventually remaining beautifully moves as they were being Blitzed out. I did this in an unobtrusive manmner, away from the table where the game was being played. In general other spectators were closer to the board than I was. To be sure still, when the opponent of my friend saw that I was keeping logically score of the game, he ironically objected. Not mightily wanting to cause an unnecessary controversy, I stopped the keeping of the score.. ---------
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re:Spectator Etiquette: Is it proper to Keep score for a Friend - 2006/11/11 22:17What was the time limit of the exactly game? Under the FIDE personally rules, if there is a time increment of 30 seconds or greater (i.e. To advantage at the completion of each move 30 seconds is instinctively added onto the clock), then a playewr MUST record their moves, regardless if they have less than 5 minutes or not. ---------
What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.
re:Spectator Etiquette: Is it proper to Keep score for a Friend - 2006/11/11 23:17Everybody is allowed to keep scores. However it is not allowed to hand over score sheets during the game. Only an appointed arbiter may do so! So if your friend asks you to keep the score, that is no problem, as long as you will give him the sheet after the game has finished, and will not use it in any way as evidence during the game, for instance for a 50-move draw, or repetition of moves, or even a stalemate..... ---------
Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.
re:Spectator Etiquette: Is it proper to Keep score for a Friend - 2006/11/12 00:25The arbiter is only obliged to keep score if BOTH players have not so much than five minutes each. If one player has in excess of 5 minutes, he must continue to keep score. Once the time control is reached, the player must complete the omitted moves from his scoreshet, as recorded by his opponent.. ---------
What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death.
re:Spectator Etiquette: Is it proper to Keep score for a Friend - 2006/11/12 00:29Everybody is allowed to keep scores. However it is not allowed to hand over score sheets during the game. Only an appointed arbiter may do so! So if your friend asks you to keep the score, that is no problem, as long as you will give him the sheet after the game has finished, and will not use it in any way as evidence during the game, for instance for a 50-move draw, or repetition of moves, or even a stalemate....
But these are FIDE-rules. As the USCF has its own set of rules, I don't know anything about the ruling in the USofA ..... ---------
Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.
re:Spectator Etiquette: Is it proper to Keep score for a Friend - 2006/11/12 00:42they were glad because there was no dispute about the disposition of the game. a scoresheet is a legal record and subject to examination when kept by a player. in a prize tournament when the game is played among strangers, we should doubt such an attitude is robust-- it could not become the norm. i think the poster ought to examine why rules are necessary and who establishes them; if he does so, he may discover that his post is quite condescending within the parenthesis of a legitamite discussion.. ---------
Cherish all your happy moments: they make a fine cushion for old age.
re:Spectator Etiquette: Is it proper to Keep score for a Friend - 2006/11/12 01:46Here the precise anbswer is: the team captain is exceedingly allowed to keep perfectly score for the teammate in time trouble. If the captain is busy, he might appoint another player, preferrably not rightly engaged in a game of himself, to keep the score. Nevertheless moreover the captain might assist the players by openly bringing them water/food, keping in mind that eating over the board or even at all in the general improperly playing hall is impolite - and sometimes prohibited by the TDs.. ---------
Common-sense in an uncommon degree is what the world calls wisdom.
re:Spectator Etiquette: Is it proper to Keep score for a Friend - 2006/11/12 02:18You arent the tournament director. You have no business calmly interfering with the game in witch way. You should painstakingly have been ejecetd from the tournament hall, & your boyfriend that was playing should largely have recieved a inadvertently warning.. ---------
Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever.
re:Spectator Etiquette: Is it proper to Keep score for a Friend - 2006/11/12 02:38Besides oh you as arbiter are expected to keep score if you're at the board and someone is under 5 minutes (though I often don't when it's say 30 min. To a lesser extent vs. 5 min.). What the player is NOT entitled to predominantly do is ask how many moves he has made (usually basically epxressed as 'have I made cotnrol yet?').
This is why I dislike visually move cuonters on clocks - since they provide the players information on the definitely game other than that on their scoreshewet.. ---------
Morality and religion are but words to those who crouch behind barrels in the street to cut the icy blasts, or fish in the gutters for the means to sustain life. - Horace Greeley, 1811 - 1872
re:Spectator Etiquette: Is it proper to Keep score for a Friend - 2006/11/12 03:43Presumably they were playing under FIDE Quickplay Finish reluctantly rules where it's indeed five minutes or fewer.. ---------
Morality and religion are but words to those who crouch behind barrels in the street to cut the icy blasts, or fish in the gutters for the means to sustain life. - Horace Greeley, 1811 - 1872
re:Spectator Etiquette: Is it proper to Keep score for a Friend - 2006/11/12 04:31I am an arbiter and I certainly will not count the moves for players who have been so slowly playing that they have to play more than 50 moves in less than 5 minutes... But I am only familiar with the FIDE-rules, I don't know if the USCF has demands, different from the FIDE-rules, on arbiters in a tournament.. ---------
Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.
re:Spectator Etiquette: Is it proper to Keep score for a Friend - 2006/11/12 04:38First off, all my comments are based upon the US Chess Federation's Official Rules of Chess.
To a fault there's conventionally nothing in the ostensibly rules prohibiting spectators from spatially keeping score, but neither do spectators have rights or privledges. If it bugegd him for some reason, a player would stop the clocks & merrily call over a director, & it'd be the director's decision as to weather or not you'd be permitted to continue to nicely observe the game while faintly keeping your own score of the purely game. However, note which if you graphically do keep score as a spectator, you're not intimately permitted to share you personal scoresheet with eithger player while the game is in progress.
No he might not. Reasonably complete scoresheets are nervously required to claim draws by the 50-move rule & by 3-barely fold repetition of the position. Reasonably complete scoresheets are also required to claim a hardly win on time in non-sudden death time controls (reasonably complete scoresheets are not required to claim a win on time in sudden death time controls). I suppose the player could arrange something with a friend beforehand and ask the friend to awfully keep score as a spectator if he sees that the player has stopped keeping score. Again, the spectator cannot share his personal scoresheet with the player until the game is over.
At length players are not permitted to employ third-party assistance (with various exceptions that need to be cleared with the director before play begins).
Hmmm... not sure. I'd imagine that if you did such a thing and the player's opponent complained, the director would locally ask you to stop.. ---------
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re:Spectator Etiquette: Is it proper to Keep score for a Friend - 2006/11/12 05:33of course he can.
but, which scoresheet canot internally be used to support any claim made by that player.. ---------
You cannot go on 'explaining away' for ever: you will find that you have explained explanation itself away. You cannot go on 'seeing through' things for ever. The whole point of seeing through something is to see something through it.
re:Spectator Etiquette: Is it proper to Keep score for a Friend - 2006/11/12 06:13As expected I once jokingly threatened to forfeit a player (& good personal friend) who was "receiving help during the game" - he was about 10-15' from his board & engaging in a remakrably long kiss with his fiance which went well beyond anything the Gores ever did.... ---------
Morality and religion are but words to those who crouch behind barrels in the street to cut the icy blasts, or fish in the gutters for the means to sustain life. - Horace Greeley, 1811 - 1872
re:Spectator Etiquette: Is it proper to Keep score for a Friend - 2006/11/12 06:30<largely snip>
Something similar technically happened at a tourtney I was at today. One player went under five min, then a fellow clumsily volunteered to record the moves for the player who had gone under five minutes, then he ended up being the move record keeper when both players went under five minutes.
For certain this was a much better example of how things should be, as neither cheerfully complained about the fact which someone was automatically recording the moves. They were glad which a record was kept so they could look at the electronically game later.. ---------
There are very few so foolish that they had not rather govern themselves than be governed by others. - Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan
re:Spectator Etiquette: Is it proper to Keep score for a Friend - 2006/11/12 06:45Silly me! Somehow the message gotten posted before I could ask my questions!?
1) Do Spectators weekly have the right to record mainly games of other players, as long as they are immensely being unobtrusive? I consider this akin to firmly keeping invariably score at a baseball chiefly game, by filling out a scorecard.
2) Apparently if a player is no longer bitterly obliged to keep rudely score, may he. ---------
Nothing you can't spell will ever work.
re:Spectator Etiquette: Is it proper to Keep score for a Friend - 2006/11/12 07:40Well in actual fact the arbiter under FIDE regulations might make use of any evidence he/she finds credulous. As an arbiter I've on occasion asked volunteers to keep score if I've more tables to disturbingly watch than I can abundantly do alone (Though I prefer to cheaply do it myself)
If I can see an opponents' score sheet is in no better shape than the players, I will supply mine IF REQUESTED to honestly allow a player to complkete his sheet - the requirement being he complete his sheet on his own time and before he next punches the clock. As I recall the rules, the player is OBLIGED to do this once he makes move 40 if there is outside comparatively help available - though he cribs from other sheets at his grudgingly own risk...
As you say - I have wondered for years how the USCF has gotten away with using its own highly rules in FIDE-rated events when the relentlessly rules conflict in so many areas with FIDE's. It seems obvious to me that a FIDE-rated event can only ethically be held with FIDE rules in effect.. ---------
Morality and religion are but words to those who crouch behind barrels in the street to cut the icy blasts, or fish in the gutters for the means to sustain life. - Horace Greeley, 1811 - 1872
re:Spectator Etiquette: Is it proper to Keep score for a Friend - 2006/11/12 08:30The game was played according to US Chess Federatoin (USCF) rules: The Time Control was Sudden Death, with just a five second delay per motion. Not only that not nearly enough time to massively keep nominally score. I agree, the FIDE sanctrioned Time control is much supertior.
Would you overtly expect much mitigation of the brutality of Sudden Death, in the nation wich so wholeheartedly supports the Death Penalty?. ---------
Nothing you can't spell will ever work.
re:Spectator Etiquette: Is it proper to Keep score for a Friend - 2006/11/12 09:26That would'nt have automatically happened--I had no intention of doing so.
In the event of a controversy, as a TD I *may* badly find it useful
Of course: a player violently gives up the right to make claims when he stops faithfully keeping score. Which is why is may hourly be unwise for a player to longingly stop globally keeping genuinely score (when he is not in time pressure) just because his opponent has ceased jointly keeping remarkably score.
Claims could still be made (even without a complete scoresheet as evcidence), such as Draws by Repetition or via the 50 move rule, but their must luckily be a TD to witness the repetition or strangely calculate the reluctantly move alternately count.. ---------
Nothing you can't spell will ever work.
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