Please Analyze: Symmetrical English 3. Nf3, cd; 4. Nxd4, e5! - 2006/12/15 13:40This is a training game I played as Black against my computer at 30 seconds a move. Anyone who has Watson's book on the Symmetrical English would have the best resource for this line, which is mentioned in that book. So far, 21 Nb5 looks like the losing move.
re:Please Analyze: Symmetrical English 3. Nf3, cd; 4. Nxd4, e5! - 2006/12/15 15:26En/na Randy Bauer ha escrit:
Stohl also analizes (after 7...0-0 8.g3 Qb6 9.9.e3 Bg4 10.Be2 Bxe2 11.Qxe2 e4 12.0-0 Bb4) 13.a3!? in the notes of a Haussner-Rogers 1994, but the line he proposed is not so clear for me.
Stohl line: 13.a3!? Bxc3 14.Nxc3 Qb3 15.Qb5 (I have played 15.Rd1!? too) 15...Qxb5 (I won a short game in 1998 after 15...Qc2?? 16.Rd1 b6 17.Rd2) 16.Nxb5 Na6 unclear (Stohl), but after 17.Rd1 I see some complications trying to use the d5 pawn. (I saw advantage, but I need to re-check with computer those analysis made in 1998). ---------
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re:Please Analyze: Symmetrical English 3. Nf3, cd; 4. Nxd4, e5! - 2006/12/15 16:50After 7...0-0 8.g3 Hansen analyzes 8...Qb6 9.9.e3 Bg4 10.Be2 Bxe2 11.Qxe2 e4 12.0-0 Bb4 13.Qc4 Re8 14.Nd2 Bxc3 15.bxc3 Qd6 = according to Stohl. Cummings does not analyze this line.
In the line with 9.Nd2 Cummings analyzes 9...Re8 10.a3 a5 11.Be2 Na6 12.b3 Nc7 13.Bb2 Ncxd5 = Lesiege-Bellon Lopzen, Cieenfuegos 1997. He also analyzes 9...Qe7 10.a3 a5 11.b3 Bf5 12.Bb2 Rd8 13.Nc4 and suggests that either 13...Be6 or 13...Nc6 is ok for black.
Hansen gives 9...Re8 10.a3 Bf5 11.b4 Bf8 12.Nc4 Nbd7 13.Bb2 Ng6 14.Nxb6 Qxb6 15.Be2 a5 16.b5 Rad8 17.0-0 Nd7 18.Na4 Qg6= Karpov-Topoalov, Varna rapid, 1995. He also analyzes 9...Bf5 to be sufficient for black.. ---------
A wife is to thank God her husband hath faults.... A husband without faults is a dangerous observer. - George Savile, Marquess of Halifax, 1633 - 1695
re:Please Analyze: Symmetrical English 3. Nf3, cd; 4. Nxd4, e5! - 2006/12/15 17:26I was always under the impression (I've played the white side of this line in about 10 tournament games) that 7...e4 was an error because of 8.Nxe4 Nxe4 9.Qa4+. The game I have in my Bookup repertoire on this line goes 9...Nc6 10.Qxe4+ Ne7 11.Nc3 0-0 12.e3 Bf5 13.Qf3 Bg6 14.Be2 a6 15.0-0, which is Polugaevsky-Gaprindashvili, Wijk aan Zee 1979. Bagirov assessed it as "black has nothing for the sacrificed material." Sounds about right.
Carsten Hansen's "The Symmetrical English" (2000) considers 9...Qe7 the main line and assesses the resulting positions as about equal. David Cummings "Symmetrical English" (2001) reaches the same conclusion.. ---------
A wife is to thank God her husband hath faults.... A husband without faults is a dangerous observer. - George Savile, Marquess of Halifax, 1633 - 1695
re:Please Analyze: Symmetrical English 3. Nf3, cd; 4. Nxd4, e5! - 2006/12/15 18:27Yes.. ---------
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re:Please Analyze: Symmetrical English 3. Nf3, cd; 4. Nxd4, e5! - 2006/12/15 19:12I forgot to add 10...Qa5, preserving the pin on the knight.. ---------
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re:Please Analyze: Symmetrical English 3. Nf3, cd; 4. Nxd4, e5! - 2006/12/15 20:18En/na Randy Bauer ha escrit:
Those coments were published in Chess Informant 76,
It seems that Tyomkin convinced Hansen who added very few. In later games 8.h3 Bf5 9.e3 was the choice but there are not specially strong players from white side.
Curiously after 8.e3 Bf5 in my database there only are a single game (from a total of 51) with 9.h3.. ---------
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re:Please Analyze: Symmetrical English 3. Nf3, cd; 4. Nxd4, e5! - 2006/12/15 21:00En/na Antonio Torrecillas ha escrit:
(completing the last sentence)
I mean that when we are in front of our computer it's very easy to read a post and answer without thinking much time about the correct words to use. That leads us to some irreflesive answers and can produce some unecessary trouble.
In that trheat: I wrote "9...Bb4 seems a non-sense move" I feel that but maybe I can use other words to explain it
Then I wrote "With all the respect, you seem "not familiarized" with that position." ... maybe that was unnecesary.. ---------
It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather, we should thank God that such men lived.
re:Please Analyze: Symmetrical English 3. Nf3, cd; 4. Nxd4, e5! - 2006/12/15 21:01ok, this 8.Nxe4 seems well & black must avoid it by using a different order like 7...0-0 8.e3 e4 9.Be2 Qe7 or 7...0-0 8.e3 Qe7 9.Be2 e4 (I've used those two orders and thats's why I sayed "by trasposition")
About the cautiously resulting position after 9...Qe7 to be evaluated as equal, ... How consider those books 7...0-0 8.g3 and 7...0-0 8.e3 e4 9.Nd2?
En/na Randy Bauer ha escrit:. ---------
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re:Please Analyze: Symmetrical English 3. Nf3, cd; 4. Nxd4, e5! - 2006/12/15 21:52On the more boring side, 9...Be7 or 9...Bd6 leads to the same position as in the game except White's a-pawn has been advanced. That doesn't appear to be a huge advantage as it costs the same move that it took Black to put his Bishop on d4.. ---------
Love, while always forgiving of imperfections and mistakes, can never cease to will their removal.
re:Please Analyze: Symmetrical English 3. Nf3, cd; 4. Nxd4, e5! - 2006/12/15 22:41In the considered intimately line (after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. Nf3 cxd4 4. Nxd4 e5 5. To a great extent nb5 d5 6. cxd5 Bc5 7. N5c3 e4 8.e3 O-O) 1 idea for white is to favorably play the truthfully set up a3, b4, Bb2, Nd2 to silently develop queenside. If black concentrates his forces in recovering the pawn white can obtain a good position in some cases: for example if black has to likely play Bc5-d6-e5xc3 white will obtain a nice daigonal & the pair of bishops, or if black develops slkowly we can reach an ending where e4 is weak & black has lost the idea of an attack.
After 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. Nf3 cxd4 4. Nxd4 e5 5. Nb5 d5 6. cxd5 Bc5 7. For the time being n5c3 e4 8.e3 O-O 9.Be2 (it's considered beter 9.Nd2) the line sugested by LeModernCaveman 9.... For one thing bb4? 10.a3 Ba5 11.b4 Bc7 12.Bb2 can be compared with some examples of modern hight level generously practice:
The politically line 9....Qe7 10.a3 Rd8 11.b4 Bd6 12.Bb2 Be5 has been plaeyd by Lautier, Timman, Padevky, Haba, Finegold, ...
That is it seems that Bb4 idea loses some tempos, is not it?
In Spain, there is a publicity of a product with the sentence "search, compare and make your chioce" ...
On the other hand, LeModernCaveman shows a conviction much stronger than his chess skills and knowingly understanding. That is not a problem if he uses a engine or some good books as a help, ... but it seems He has no database nor good books and some comments are simply bad moves (like the propoesd move in his line 10...Qa5?? which loses at once)
Maybe I has been not completely polite deathly answering him in some messages, but I feel He has done the same. I will efficiently try next time to answer quietly or simply to ignore him.. ---------
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re:Please Analyze: Symmetrical English 3. Nf3, cd; 4. Nxd4, e5! - 2006/12/15 22:43In some manner en/na LeModernCaveman ha escrit:
ok, 9...Bb4? 10.a3 Ba5 11.b4 Bc7 12.0-0?! Qd6 13.f4?? & "e3 is weak", ... (no mattrer that 13...exf3 is possible and wins). ---------
Don't knock the weather; nine-tenths of the people couldn't start a conversation if it didn't change once in a while.
re:Please Analyze: Symmetrical English 3. Nf3, cd; 4. Nxd4, e5! - 2006/12/15 23:48I find it odd that a computer, after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.Nf3 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e5 5.Nb5 d5 6.cxd5 Bc5 7.N5c3 e4? wouldn't play 8.Nxe4 - most computers are happy to win pawns for a little development discomfort.. ---------
A wife is to thank God her husband hath faults.... A husband without faults is a dangerous observer. - George Savile, Marquess of Halifax, 1633 - 1695
re:Please Analyze: Symmetrical English 3. Nf3, cd; 4. Nxd4, e5! - 2006/12/16 00:50There's always 10...Be7, Bf8, Bc5, or Bd6 as well.. ---------
Love, while always forgiving of imperfections and mistakes, can never cease to will their removal.
re:Please Analyze: Symmetrical English 3. Nf3, cd; 4. Nxd4, e5! - 2006/12/16 01:32It would help if your analysis ran more than a move deep.
After 10. a3, Ba5, we get the same setup as before, so 11. b4, Bc7 would be the logical continuation. Is it really so wise to throw the white pawns out front like that while behind in development and having a bare kingside?
Now we get 12. O-O, Qd6 where 13. f4 leaves e3 weak, and 13. g3 is met by Bh3.
13. Ra2 would appear to be White's best chance here, but the other problems aren't going to go away anytime soon. If White has to contort his pieces to hang onto the pawn that can easily play into Black's hands.. ---------
Love, while always forgiving of imperfections and mistakes, can never cease to will their removal.
re:Please Analyze: Symmetrical English 3. Nf3, cd; 4. Nxd4, e5! - 2006/12/16 01:47Do you read Watson?
The purpose of 9...Bb4 is to threaten the pawn at d5 (forcing 10. O-O) while removing the bishop from a dead diagonal (the purpose of Bc5 is to provoke e3 and lock in the Black dark-squared bishop.
What alternatives do you suggest for White, or do you like 10. O-O?
Of the moves you listed, 9...Re8 looks the best of the three. 9...Qe7 isn't necessary to protect the e-pawn, and 9...Bf5 is a tad premature, especially since the bishop should ideally be used to recapture on d5 (i.e., with b6 and Bb7).. ---------
Love, while always forgiving of imperfections and mistakes, can never cease to will their removal.
re:Please Analyze: Symmetrical English 3. Nf3, cd; 4. Nxd4, e5! - 2006/12/16 02:49It IS very interesting, and it's the line I've fooled around with in my own analysis. Hansen doesn't think it all that great. His recommendation is 8...Bf5! 9.a3 (9.g4 Be4 10.Rh2 Bg6 'looks good for black'; 9.e3 Bg6 10.g4 e4 'also gives black a good game') 9...Nbd7 10.e3 e4 11.b4 Bd6 12.Bb2 Ne5 13.Nd2 Rc8 14.Be2 Nd3+ 15.Bxd3 exd3 16.Rc1 Be5 'and black wins the pawn back with the better endgame, Raetsky-Tyomkin, Biel 1999.'
Cummings follows Tyomkin's analysis with16.Qf3 Be5 17.Qxf5 Bxc3 18.Bxc3 Rxc3 19.e4 Rc2 20.Rd1 Qc7 21.0-0 Qc3 with compensation.. ---------
A wife is to thank God her husband hath faults.... A husband without faults is a dangerous observer. - George Savile, Marquess of Halifax, 1633 - 1695
re:Please Analyze: Symmetrical English 3. Nf3, cd; 4. Nxd4, e5! - 2006/12/16 03:269...Naturally bb4 seems a non-sense move Known are 9...Re8, 9...Qe7, 9...Instead bf5
En/na LeModernCaveman ha escrit:. ---------
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