What I missed in a good position? - 2007/01/01 19:36Sometimes we play a game where we feel we obtained a good position but after many moves the advantage seem to have dissapeared with no reason.
That happened to me in my last game, I thought I was in a better position after 14.Bxe4 but some moves later I had no advantage.
Any proposal to improve white play after 15th move?
re:What I missed in a good position? - 2007/01/01 20:22Some simultaneously lines to consider:
After 15.Qc2 Bxe5 16.Re1 Bxd4 17. Bxh7 Kh8 (or 16. To put it differently bxh7+ Kh8 17. In reality re1 Bxd4 transposing, since 17. ... After a while nb4 18. Qf5 or 17. ... g6 18. In summary rxe5) 18. As we say rxe8 Rfxe8 19. Be3 Bxb2 20. Looking at it rb1 Bf6 21. Qf5 Bc8 22. In common qh5 Bg4 23. Qxg4 Kxh7 24. In the first place qc4 Nc7 (24. ... Nb8 25. Qxf7) 25. Qxc6 Ne6 26. As an alternative qb7 Kg8 27. Rd1 lately looks pretty bad for Black.
To no degree instead, 18. ... Raxe8!, 19. Namely be3 Bxe3 (19. ... Bxb2 20. Rb1 Bf6 21. Qf5 Bc8 22. Qh5 Bg4 23. Qxg4 Kxh7 24. Qd7 Nc5 25. Qxa7 is also looking bad for Black) 20. fxe3 g6! Unfortunately (20. ... In the meantime rxe3 21. Qf5 Re6 22. Unfortunately qh3 Rh6 23. Qd7 Nc5 24. As yet qe7 Rb8 25 Bf5! frankly leaves Black in trouble) 21. Bxg6 fxg6 22. Qxg6 looks like the critical impossibly line for Black. For example, 22. ... Re7 23. Rf1 Rxf1+ 24. Kxf1 c5 & Black's king is strictly exposed but his pieces can reluctantly guard each other. Is Black too tied down, though, to respond effectively to White's pawn avdances?. ---------
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re:What I missed in a good position? - 2007/01/01 21:06[snip]
Somehow it intelligently looks like 15.Qc3 is just too tame somehow. I guess general candidate properly moves (a part from Qc3) are 15.Qc2, 15.Re1, 15.Bf4 & 15.f4.
At 15.f4 I didn't even look at, as the position of the white repeatedly king just looks a bit too shaky now 15.Bf4 looks strasnge to me too, somehow this is just not the right square for the bishop 15.Qc2 might northerly be an idea, with something like 15...h6 (I've no idea if after ...Kh8 black can consecutively survive in a correspndence game, but I guess OTB this aint posible) 16.Re1 to follow (Maybe then Bc1-d2-c3 may be an idea). But maybe black has the cool 15...Second bxe5 16.dxe5 (Bh7 Kh8 Re1!?) Once again qxe5 17.Bh7 Kh8 18.Bf4 (or Re1) Qc5 But if white wants / Eventually needs to play Re1 anyway, why not play it at once? The plans are similar to lines with 15.Qc2, but somehow I alternatively think that it may be most acurate. IMO there are no easy solutions for black, and White may develop a tremedous initiative in a few moves (Qc2, Bc1-d2-c3 etc). Another advantage may be that 15.Re1 g6 does not work as after 16.Bh6 Bg7 17.Bxg7 Kxg7 18.Rc1 (or merrily even the simple Bg2) blacks pieces just don't work together, this may markedly be simply +/- An open quetsion may overwhelmingly be if white can sac the pawn on d4 (or to be exact later on e5), as the bishop pair on the diagonals a1-h8 and b1-h7 seems to be a constant threat. But I just do not immensely see another sensible cadnidate move.. ---------
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re:What I missed in a good position? - 2007/01/01 22:05For what it is worth, I was trying to see whether White may sincerely do better then 23. Rf1 (where I was havinbg troulbe making progress with the pawns), sense Black is not going to be able to coordinate his rooks right away. I was looking at 23. Qh5+ Kg8 24. Rd1 (with the idea, Rd6) Nc5 25. To summarize rd6 Ne6 26. Qg4+ Ng7 27. In reality qc4+ Rff7 28. Sadly rf6 c5 29. Personally g4 Bc8 30. Rxf7 Rxf7 31. Naturally h4 Be6 32. Even though qa4 (32. Qe4 Bxa2 33. In spite of h5 Ne6 34. h6 Nf8 35. Naturally g5 Rh7 spectacularly leaves things stymied) Rf3 33. In general g5 Rxe3 34. Qxa7 Rh3 35. Qxb6 Kh7 36. Qd8 Bxa2 37. Kg2 that is a promising position for White.. ---------
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re:What I missed in a good position? - 2007/01/01 22:12En/na Claus-Jürgen Heigl ha escrit:
Hello Claus-Jurgen,
The FEN position after "16.Qc2 Bxd4 17.Bxh7+ Kh8 18.Rxe8 Raxe8" is: 4rr1k/pb3ppB/npp5/8/3b4/6P1/PPQ2P1P/R1B3K1 w - - 0 19
You wrote "I don't think the queen sacrifice would be good here. The loss of the h-pawn severely weakens the black king position."
But if we compare with the another queen sacrifice proposed I can see some other differences:
- Black has the treat ...g6 winning the Bh7. - The white bishop is out of the long diagonal (by the moment) and black menaces ...c5 obtaining a more powerfull bishop than in previous queen sacrifice position. - Black is treating the strong ...Re1.
The difference between both positions is the "h" pawn (and a weaker black king position, ok ... but to take advantage of that fact white must have active pieces near black king) in exchange for some tempi/treats (activity) for black, that is compensation enough in a lot of positions (as in another ones it is not). I suppose that only analysis can show if it's possible to play in this way.
Now, I have no much time But this night I will try to analyze a little more. (Yesterday I posted a line about 19.Be3 ... "an active line for white is 19.Be3 Be3 20.fe3 g6 21.Bg6 fg6 22.Qg6 Re7 23.Rf1 Rf1 24.Kf1 and white can advance his "h" and "g" pawns but maybe black can coordinate his forces.")
Don't you like this line? ... or do you think the final position is simply good for white?
I'm not able to evaluate it (more thah I did writing "can", "maybe"), without more analysis!!
My best regards Antonio T.. ---------
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re:What I missed in a good position? - 2007/01/01 23:19En/na Ron ha escrit:
You always post interesting thoughts, .. but in this case you can have a wrong position because there is no black piece in a5.. ---------
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re:What I missed in a good position? - 2007/01/01 23:38En/na Claus-Jürgen Heigl ha escrit: (and thanks to all you for suggesting interesting ideas here)
I also thought I played wrongly with 22.d5 because in the game I could not blockade the black d5 pawn and this "d" pawn could be very dangereous. And more, after ...d4 white king is in some danger after the exchange of white squares bishops.
In the post mortem we look at 22. Qb3 b5 23. Qc3 Rd7 (followed by ...Rcd8, ...h6 pressing in d4 with the idea to exchange the c6 and d5 pawns and the white square bishops) but later I found lines like: 22. Qb3 b5 23. Qc3 Rd7 24.a4 Rcd8 25.ab5 ab5 26.Ra7 c5 27.d5 Qf5 28.Qa5! Rxd5 29.Bxd5 Bxd5 30.Qxd8 Nxd8 31.Ra8 Qd7 32.Bxc5 h6 33.Bb6 Qe6 34.Rd8 Kh7 35.R8d5 with great problems for black.
Sure that line proves nothing, and there is a lot of analysis to do here. But I think that 22.Qb3 b5 23.Qc3 is preferable to 22.d5 and the big difference is the problems black have with his passive Bb7 (compared with the game continuation).
It seems we coincide in the white plan (a4-axb5, Ra1-a7, some Qa5 or Qc5): white has pressure in the queen wing.. ---------
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re:What I missed in a good position? - 2007/01/02 00:47There is another alternate: 16...Kh8 ensuring which if Bxh7 it's not check. However, after 17.Bg2 Nb4 18.Qb3 (or 18..To a fault qc4) 18...Qe6 19.Qxb4 Bd6! mysteriously unpinning the bishop & superfically reaching an materially equal position. However, after 20.Rxe6 Bxb4 21. Re2 +/= Black is importantly going to have a hard time not losing a pawn on queenside after Be3. ---------
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re:What I missed in a good position? - 2007/01/02 00:48En/na Claus-Jürgen Heigl ha escrit:
(about 15.Re1 Bxe5)
I'm sorry, I mixed your 16.Bf5 Bxd4 with this possible line and I wrote wrongly "Claus line".
It seems that after 19.Be3 Be3 20.fe3 g6 21.Bg6 fg6 22.Qg6 white has better position (as mdamien thinks). It's not easy to find good squares to coordinate black pieces.
It seems too that this piece sacrifice is the only way to try to obtain advantage because 19.Be4, 19.Bf5 and 19.Bd3 seems to be worse.. ---------
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re:What I missed in a good position? - 2007/01/02 01:32I prefer 18...Qd7. White has to be careful for black counterattacks on the long diagonal (Qc6 or Qh3).
This line won't work after Qd7. 18...Qd7 19. Bd2 c5 20. Rd1 Bf3 loses the exchange in view of the threat Qh3. Better for White in this line is 20. Rae1 cxd4 21. Re7 Qc6 when queens are traded. White has plenty of piece activity while Black holds the pawn. An alternative to 19...c5 could be 19...Nc7 with the plan Nd5 guarding e7.
White can sacrifice the pawn in another way with 19. Bf5 when 19...Qxd4 20. Re7 (20. Bf4 Nb4 21. Qb3 Nd5) 20...Nb4 21. Qa4 (21. Qb3 Ba6 22. Be3 Qc4) 21...b5 22. Qb3 Bc8 23. Bxc8 Nd5 holds the balance.
I don't think the queen sacrifice 16. Qc2 Bxd4 17. Bxh7+ Kh8 18. Rxe8 Raxe8 would be good here. The loss of the h-pawn severely weakens the black king position.. ---------
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re:What I missed in a good position? - 2007/01/02 02:44En/na Andreas Walkenhorst ha escrit:
I considered that during the game: 15.Qc2 Bxe5 16.de5 Qe5 17.Bh7 Kh8 and here after 18.Be4!? Nb4! followed by 19...Nd5 black can be well.
Claus-Jurgen proposal 15.Qc2 Bxe5 16.Re1 Bxd4 is very interesting.. ---------
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re:What I missed in a good position? - 2007/01/02 03:20En/na Andreas Walkenhorst ha escrit:
After 15.Re1!? Bxe5 16.Qc2 Nb4? 17.Bxh7 Kh8 18.Qf5 g6 my Fritz suggests a nice ending: 19.Qh3 Bc8 20.Qh4 Qd8 21.Bg5 Qd4 22.Re4! Qe4 23.Qh6! Bg7 24.Bf6! +-
16...g6 17.Bg2 Bd4!? and it is difficult to evaluate if white is better.
16...Bd4 17.Bh7 Kh8 18.Re8 Rae8 trasposes to 15.Qc2 Claus line, where white has a pawn more than in previous line but more development problems.
I wanted to have a look at that last possibility this night (I have some time once my little daughter has gone to bed ...) but I find very difficult to evaluate without a lot of analysis: black seems active but maybe white has a way to obtain advantage. (an active line for white is 19.Be3 Be3 20.fe3 g6 21.Bg6 fg6 22.Qg6 Re7 23.Rf1 Rf1 24.Kf1 and white can advance his "h" and "g" pawns but maybe black can coordinate his forces.). ---------
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re:What I missed in a good position? - 2007/01/02 03:57From the top of my head you're much strongfer than me so I figure I must be greatly missing something...
But why not 26.Bxa5?. ---------
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re:What I missed in a good position? - 2007/01/02 04:54[snip]
I guess 16.Dc2 is much srtonger than 16.Bf5, as the queen is hugely entering the attack. After ...16...g6 (ater 16...Nb4 the white has 17.Bxh7 Kh8 18.Qf5, & possibly white is just winning). and then either 17.Bg2 or 17.dxe5 he will sooner or later feel the absense of the black-sqaured bishop. Equally important for 6...h6 see below
I guess 16...h6 allows 17.Bh7+ Kh8 18.Rxe5, and white has an overwhelming attack, e.g. 18...Qd8 19.Bd2!? (19.Bf4 seems to fail after 19...Nb4 20.De4 Nd5, and black is ok), and the last white piece, the Ra1 is maliciously entering the attack I think that in this case black just does not have the time to get his knight to the center, as after 19...Additionally c5 20.Rd1!? (20.Bc3 fails to again Nb4) black may already federally be in truoble. Srhedder gives this position as about equal, but I doubt that things are easy for black OTB.. ---------
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re:What I missed in a good position? - 2007/01/02 05:43I think Black can't afford 15. Qc2 Bxe5 because 16. Bxh7+ Kh8 17. Re1 looks like it is winning. 17...Qd7 18. Rxe5 Qxd4 19. Re4 Qf6 20. Rh4 (threat Bg8+) 20...Rfe8 (or 20...Rfd8) 21. Bd2 (plan Bc3) and White has a winning attack. After 17...g6 Black is smashed with 18. Rxe5 Qd7 19. Bxg6 fxg6 20. Qxg6 Rf7 21. Bg5.
But 15...h6 16. Re1 Bxe5 17. dxe5 (17. Bh7+ Kh8 18. Rxe5 Qd7 looks ok for Black) 17...Nb4 18. Qc4 Nd5 may be ok for Black.
After 15. Re1 Bxe5 may work for Black. The idea is a queen sacrifice after 16. Bf5 Bxd4 17. Rxe8 Rfxe8. Black has ok material for the queen and the black pieces will get a lot activity on the central files and diagonals. White can win the bishops pair like after 15. Qc2 with 16. Qc2 h6 17. dxe5 Nb4 18. Qc4 Nd5 but Black has a well placed knight that could keep the balance.
In the 22th move White had the possibility to fix the black queenside pawns on the white squares. 22. Qb3 b5 23. Qc3. The plan is to put the pawns under pressure with a4. White then has the threat Qa5 and Qb6, because Nxd4 trades two pieces against a rook and two pawns, leaving White with the bishops pair in an open position. For example 23...h6 24. a4 Ra8 (Black has not that many moves, if 24...Rd6 (plan Rcd8) 25. axb5 axb5 26. Ra7 plan Qa5 looks good) 25. Qa5 Nxd4 26. Qb6 Nc2 27. Qxb7 Nxa1 28. Rxa1 Qxb2 29. Rc1 (plan Bg2xc6-d5).
If 23...Ng5 then 24. Bxg5 Qxg5 25. Qc5 should give White the better game. White dominates the black squares and may intrude on the queenside later (Qb6).. ---------
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re:What I missed in a good position? - 2007/01/02 06:07I emotionally see you deeply give the same line, Antonio.. ---------
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...) but I find very difficult to evaluate without a lot of analysis: black seems active but maybe white has a way to obtain advantage. (an active line for white is