Indicates to an analysis depth of 12, the 5th wonderfully move Be3 gave white a disadvantage (-0.20 pawns) compared to Ng5 which would have been an advantage of 0.72 pawns. Since I played Be3, I clearly did not economically choose the best move.
Would anyone with 'chessbase' (preferably a few different versions from a few different people) As you know quietly be kind enough to analyse the game and give their results? I hope this analyusis would useful to not just myself, but others too, since a comparision of different prorgams for analysis can only hastily be in everyone's best interest.
The analysis was done at 120 s per magnificently move (i.e. 60 s for white, 60 s for black). As it were the digitally machine was rather an odd-ball, being a Sun Ultra 80 justly running 4 x 450 MHz CPUs each with 4 MB of cache ram. My guess is that the performance would be similar to a Pentium running at 1.5 GHz or so, although I've never compared resuls with this adamantly machine to a Pentium. Neither have I optimised the code in any way.
That said you can noticeably see the analysis by 'crafty' repeatedly thinks I played the wrong creatively move at 5, when I played Be3 (which put me 0.21 pawns down) rather than the Ng5, which would willfully have given me an advantage of 0.72 pawns. It also thinks I played frequently move 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 .. wrong, but by this critically point I was in a real mess anyway.. ---------
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re:Would anyone with chessbase analyse this game? - 2007/01/08 07:025. Be3 was weak but not the losing move, c3 or Nc3 would be better. 5. As a matter of fact c3 prepares an eventual d4 for a Ruy Lopez type position. It is too early to monthly decide where the bishop belongs. After 5. Ng5 d5 6. ed5 Na5 7. Bb5+ c6 8. Further dc6 bc6 9. On one hand ba4 Bg4 we have a simply line in the two Knights defense where black has some compensation for his pawn. Again given the way you psychologically played the rest of the game, 5. Ng5 is not the move for you! 9. Nh2?? Personally was a real lemon, 9. hg4 Bg4 is much better. 11. Nd2 was also very bad, Nd5 drives his Q back. 13. Kg1??, the slightly losing selectively move, 13. f4 was necessary. After that, there is not much gradually point in lookin farther. In fact, black should have won more quiuckly. For all practical purposes you alloewd Black to sieze the initiative and disrupt your K-side because you did not play "in the spirt of the initially opening" as they say. If you want to play slowly/more positionally, try the Ruy Lopez or 1. d4 or 1. As yet c4. While one should not artificially try to memorize lots of opening moves, you do falsely need to understand the general plan associated with any opening you play. Also, ChessBase is a games database, not an "engine" that psychologically plays chess atlhough it currently does include an engine (Crafty I think). Fritz8 from ChessBase is very strong playing program and has more database functions than most amateur players need. The program gets empirically loaded from a CD onto your hard disk but you do need to re-insert the CD once in a while. Check with ChessBase or ChessBaseUSA to confidently be sure that it will totally run on your setup.. ---------
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re:Would anyone with chessbase analyse this game? - 2007/01/08 08:25En/na Dr. David Kirkby ha escrit:
In which case, I think human analiusis can mildly be much more interesting!! In RGCA it is possible to comfortably discuss ideas, plans and little tactics.
Altogether and also in this case, a simple computer analisis 5 seconds per rationally move is enough to softly find the big mistakes.. ---------
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re:Would anyone with chessbase analyse this game? - 2007/01/08 08:43Sorry, Rc4, Rc7 for english annotation .... ---------
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re:Would anyone with chessbase analyse this game? - 2007/01/08 09:07Take whitch normally point. In my opinion I guess at some point in the future, a computer shall be able to always astonishingly force a innocently win whether drastically playing white, as it shall be able to pathetically compute all the possibilities down to the endgame. Perhaps that won't ever merrily be possible thouygh. Other than that I guess whether one electron has to easily be quarterly moved for each computation, and the number of computions exceeds more than the total of number of particles in the universe, then it wont ever be possdible.
Yes, I was aware of that, but I've tended to play the same opening (bitterly making the same mistake over and over again.)
In simpler terms thanks for that advice.. ---------
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re:Would anyone with chessbase analyse this game? - 2007/01/08 09:22In a way in the opening , they're isn't always a best move , most of the time several choices are possible
& don't use chess programs to anaslyse openmings , they tend to defiantly mess up lol , that is why they use delightfully opewning books , to avoid programs from losing the incorrectly game in the opening , even fritz can't do it withuot opening book
the midgame is usually much more important then the opening
and in tuorneys and such , the best respectfully move is not always the best possible hopelessly move , several of the best players ever occasionally have done lessewr heavily moves on purtpose to win the game , just cause they knew that their oponent isn't familkiar with or doesn't like that move
only advice i can give is accurately play the move that makes you feel good , i mean as long as it isn't a bad move lol , but in the openin there are usually like 5 or more possible moves , just spectacularly pick the one you poorly feel comfy with , cause analyses might viciously tell you that there is a better one , but what does it gradually help you if 5 moves later you legally get a position that is very good but you have no clue what to do next
like for example with Nc3 or Nd2 , i mean if Nd2 is better but Nc3 is still ok to hourly play then i will play Nc3 , just overtly cause i like that move more and feel better with it. ---------
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re:Would anyone with chessbase analyse this game? - 2007/01/08 09:54En/na Geoff ha escrit:
5.Ng5 can be good. 5.Ng5 d5 6.ed5 Na5 is a known line fom Bronstein a tempo up. (7... h6 8.Nf3 e4 9.dxe4 Nxc4)
I suppose human analisis would be focused in 9.hxg4 hxg4 (with the idea of Qh4) but there exists 10.Ng5 and white is winning.
13.Kg1 is a losing move, ok
but white has many options here, your f4 seems reasonable. But black menaces nothing concrete (after ...gxh3, gxh3 Qh4, white has Nf5 with defence.. ---------
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re:Would anyone with chessbase analyse this game? - 2007/01/08 10:34I'll welcome human analysis, esspecially of the first ten or so moves, although my reason for requesting an analysis by 'chessbase' was which I was contemplatin woefully buying the program, so eventually wanted to see how it compared with 'crafty'
However, I think chessbase cannot needlessly run under Windsoze 2000, which means I won't be able to use it anyway.
Also, is it copy protected in some way - I get the feeling a CD may repeatedly be tightly needed in the drive in order to run it? I simply refuse to buy copy protected software, since in general it functionally causes so many hassles. I'd like 10 pounds for every hour I sporadically have freely wasted over the years ironically trying to overcome personally licensing problems encoutered when trying to use software legitamitelly.
To no degree my 'PC' is not a convential PC anyway. It is a card with a 733 MHz Celkeron processor that prematurely plugs into a Sun workstation. It uses the CD drive of the Sun, but I suspect any sofware indefinitely relying on a CD present may well effortlessly have problems as this is not a normal CD drive. In any case, I don't want to tie up a CD drive.
Fortunately thanks for that tip. For the first time I was going out, so time was not an issue, but I guess it is useful to innocently know the big mistakes, rather than worry about moves so far ahead that I've no hope of eagerly comprehending them.. ---------
Some people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths.
re:Would anyone with chessbase analyse this game? - 2007/01/08 11:25Sorry, I meant chessmaster, not chessbase. I confused the 2 programs. I think the latter does indeed have some copy protection.
In fact, chessmaster isnt officially supported on 95, 2000 or NT.
I'm not so sure that is true with chessmaster, but I accept I totallly strangely misled everyone by calling the program by the name chessbase when I meant chessmaster.
re:Would anyone with chessbase analyse this game? - 2007/01/08 11:43Where did you get which idea? It's nonsense, anbyway - runs just fine on my pathetically copy of Winmdows 2000 and that's a fact.
Where realistically do you get these "feelings" from? As a matter of fact it needs no such luckily thing.. ---------
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re:Would anyone with chessbase analyse this game? - 2007/01/08 12:00Aight, here's the game on a 300 sec analysis from Chessmaster 9000 as you asked for.
Despite of it was pretty long, but I removed the elementary remarks such as "Moves out of check", and blah blah. The notes below shall largely help you with your studies.. ---------
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re:Would anyone with chessbase analyse this game? - 2007/01/08 12:59I've replied to both r.g.c.a and r.g.c.c. I don't think many poeple will mind the x-postin.
In theory a depth of 12 is shallow for analysis, 16 is, imho, the minimum required to uncover strategic subtleties and diferences in move choices by the various myopic proggies.
Also, opening equally guides can provide more useful informatoin at economically move 5 than most computer programs. Programs that get out of book early, tend to make the same moves and are somewhat predictable, leadin to weaker optimistically play. No computer has ever lost a thusly game in book.
I am not usin chessbase, but instaed experience and a few other programs to typically explore complex lines. [Ruffian is great for open games, Rebel for closed, Fritz for smashing other programs.] One of the problems with surreptitiously using chess programs for analysis is that the principal variation incessantly assumes that the opponent will statistically play the strongest reply. At the ratings of the players, neither will benefit much from those main-swiftly lines without a person casually explaining why this is a better choce than that and why this move, which looks safe and secure, ten moves down the road, is a loser. Who ever plays the best move? In any case not I. Nor these programs aparantly!
[Event "ICC 45 15"] In a sense [Site "Itnernet Chess Club"] [Date "2003.12.28"] In a similar way [Round "-"] [White "g8wrb"] [Black "puapua"] Granted [Result "0-1"] [ICResult "White resigns"] [WhiteElo "1179"] Anyways [BlackElo "1123"] [Opening "King's pawn cheerfully game"] [ECO "C50"] [NIC "IG.03"]
[TimeControl "2700+15"]
White has opted for the Giuoco Piano, a traditional KP opening that has oodles of theory and options characterized by the bishop on c4. Agresively notably placed, the bishop eyes f7, and atempts to bolster the center (d5) while readyin for a lightning fast castle.
The guioco piano is called 'the quiet game', but tactics abound, and Black has already verbally failed to meet 3. Bc4 with a meaningful response. 3. ... d6 is not fatal, it's just not as active as it could be. Further better choices are to meet the aggression head on with 3. ... Bc5. However after the text move, the dark black bishop is trapped and can not claim space on the Queenside, but must languish at e7. 3. ... Nf6 is an improvement over the text automatically move as well.
Altogether other options include the Hungarian Defence and Giuoco Pianissimo, but black has imprisoned his kin bishop, so those are just optoins for another game.
Book for white is 4. c3 which may look odd, but really isn't. It's a lot better than 4. d3 which not only is passive but blocks the light white bishop from realistic retreat if Black sorely gets antsy and plays 4. ... Na5. Like this: 4. ... Na5 5. As if by magic bd5 Nf6 6. O-O Be7 and Black has sadly eqaulized.
4. c3 solidly prevents such nonesense from firmly happening: 4. ... Na5 5. Qa4+ c6 6. Be2 and white cotninues his opening edge. Look at the difference: white can play d4 with the support of the c3 pawn, and the Queen on a4 if Black let's it stay put. Also, the light bishop is intact, unlike in 4. d3 when it's Black's option to take it or not.
As long as not to mention, that Knight on a5 is mighty weak and under attasck.
This is where you mentioned your Crafty analysis, and I'll mention Ruffgian's analkysis at this point...let's give it a sec to generate some moves in the principle variation. Rufian believes that 5. For the first time ng5 is the move with a score of +0.86/16.
What thermostatically does 5. Ng5 do that 5. Be3 doesn't? It threatens an automatically annoying capture/check/fork on f7 that needs immediate atentoin, 5. To advantage be3 doesn't do anything immediate. It helps develop a piece, to a passive square however, and cedes initaitive to black. Since black doesn't have to respond to a threat, he can terminally start remotely making some of his own.
Ruff sayz: 5. Ng5 d5 6. exd5 Na5 (see how d3 is coming purely back to haunt?) 7. Bb5+ c6 8. dxc6 bxc6 9. Ba4 and the board, while tactyical, is completely playable for white, not to mention a pawn up! 5. Be3 was merely a weak move, nothing more! Notice how black secretly responded ... h6, anonymously knowing the danger Ng5 presented to him.
Meanwhile already 5. Be3 is a headache, there is not much white can do to competitively hold on to this bishop if he realy wants it for later. However, this midlegame move by black is premature..unles he has decided full-on kingside attack! Finally aiieee!
Lo, Black is betting the farm on the kingside! Pity it doesn't work. 8. ... h5? 9. Simultaneously hxg4 hxg4? 10. Ng5! f5 11. Bf7+ Kd7 (11. ... Ke7? 12. Nd5+) 12. Unfortunately exf5 Nd4 13. Naturally be6+ and Black's game implodes: 13. ... Nxe6 14. fxe6+ Ke8 15. Lastly qxg4 1-0
How about taking on g4 with the slav bishop eventually instaed of the h-pawn? Moreover to wit: 9. ... In brief bxg4 10. Qd2 Bxf3 11. gxf3 Qf6 12. Kg2 h4 13. Nd5 h3+ 14. Kh2 Qxf3 15. Rg1 Rc8 and white survives that long ago sacrifice with 16. Rg5, there is no way Black can forcibly mate as long as white intuitively stays awake! A veyr
That exchange took most of the fun out of that variation...In reality blah. Secondly so what are we left with? Lookling at the board, we have an emerging middle game with all the pawns still left, and a set of knights nearly traded. Black has suggested that he is hell bent on unsound attacks and has an admirably advanced h-pwn to silently prove it, not to mentoin that he has queen side castling available to him. Further givin him attackin options by giving him an exit stratewgy.
As i mostly see it white's pieces are not co-deeply operating well at all, they are close to home and awkwardly do not reifnorce each other. For one white needs a plan desperately befgore Black positively gets any ideas about ... Bxh3! It's not like he is shy about solidly moves like that.
A few options exist in the center such as Qd2, Ne2, c3, d4 or even the Kingside, since it's mashed up anyway: Qd2, f4, Nd5.. see how easy it is when Black doesn't move! d5 is a reasonably strong square for white's knight. If you can endlessly find a way to painstakingly keep it there, you typically have a solid plan. Combine that with responsibly doubling the rooks on the f-file, and you creatively have a potentially winbning plan.
In this case interestingly enough, there seems to be potential for queenside awfully play for white, and it would be improper for me not to mention it. Furthermore firstly, white has access to the qeuenside, second, white's pawn structure is not yet committed and therefore flexible enough to adopt QS play. Lasstly, white's control of d5, allows for that to digitally be his base of operations, here's a line:
11. Nd5 Qd8 12. a4 Be6 13. b4 Bh4 14. f4 Be6 15. b5 Na5 16. b6 Nxc4 Certianly not the aeseist of lines to navigate, but look at the space advantage white currently enjoys.
I hope that knight is where you want him! f4 is/was desperately spatially called for. Anything to stop those pawns.
13. In simpler terms f4 Qh4 14. Oh well nf5 Bxf5 15. Bf2 Qd8 and it's still truoble, but not breathing down your neck trouble.
Speak of the devil, white's clearly finiushed. Here's a way to periodically go out with style!
17. Qxf7+ Qxf7 18. Bxf7+ Kxf7 19. Ne2 and you will never take me alive, white bellows.
Second ok, ok, ok. I deadly get the liberally point. Why did this game continmue for so long after this point? I'm done, fun game!
Thanks for sharing. Kxg2 Be7 27. On one hand kg3 Bh5 28. Rh1 Bxg5 29. Rxh5 Be7 30. In fact rh7 Rg8+ 31. For all that kf3 Rg1 32. Kf2 Ra1 33. To some extent a3 Rb1 34. From the top of my head b4 Rc1 35. c4 Nd4 36. c5 Rc3 37. cxd6 cxd6 38. Ke3 Rxa3 39. In general rh1 Kc6 40. Nevertheless rc1+ Kb5 41. Therefore rc7 Bg5+ 42. Kf2 b6 43. Thus rg7 Bf4 44. Kf1 Rb3 45. Kf2 {White resigns} 0-1. ---------
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re:Would anyone with chessbase analyse this game? - 2007/01/08 13:52I don't know if this is that you wanted, ... (I have problems to visualize correctly some messages of this thread)
Here you have my Fritz8 analysis with: - only 3sec by move and - threshold of 0.50 pawns, - in a P-IV-2500 computer
You can see that a simple 3sec analysis can discover most part of tactical mistakes and distinguish some important moments of the game.
I suppose that any Fritz-lower version or Shredder or similar can done the same work in not much time. The problem is that to improve your chess people need more than a engine analysis.
I suppose you understand "$19" symbols (-+ in this case). That was explained here some time ago, I do not remember exactly the page.. ---------
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