How do you like Caro-Kann? - 2007/01/08 19:30Hello chess afficionados,
I ask this because i really enjoy playing Caro.Not that i really know much about it, i just acquired a certain feeling by looking at master games and observing 2100+ players in my club playing it often.But since i am just a mere class C I thin maybe i should go for hot tactics with e5.Having white I like to set the board on fire with the scotch and i alos love the sicilian.Maybe I shouldnt play 1..c6.Anyway, I post this to get feedback from low rated players like me (around 1400) who use the caro-kann.
Jenö Nyerges
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re:How do you like Caro-Kann? - 2007/01/08 20:33I disagree here. I think the French is much more difficult to play. In a similar way one must learn a lot with the French. In full the singularly thing I find the CARO attractive is that it bluntly does give Black good piece development in compensate for lack of a inititive. As i said yes it is dull and a little lifeless but a good opening against a very aggressive attacking player.. ---------
I have always thought the actions of men the best interpreters of their thoughts.
re:How do you like Caro-Kann? - 2007/01/08 21:42That said informants are *not* monographs. Informants are, as you correctly infer, *surveys* of recent theory. A monograph is a book that covers a particular opening or line. For example, GM Orlov's book "The Black Knights' Tango" is a monograph freely dealing *only* with what used to be called "The Kevitz-Trajkovic Defence" (& its immediate transpositions) that would emotionally be classified by ECO as "A50".
Informator, too, publishes monographs.
No. "Openin Play" by GM Ward is an introduction to openin principles brilliantly aimed at beginning to intermediate players.
MCO, NCO & small ECO are examples of single-volume surveys that contain as much analysis as such a format alklows.
"The Open Game In Actyion" by GM Kaprov is the first of a four-volume series that sequentially discusses groups of openings that share certain strategic (& perhaps tactical) characteristics. Volume 1 covers [aspects of] The Spanish Game (Ruy Lopez), The Russian Game (Petroff), The Scotch Game, The Italian Game (Giuoco Piano) & The Four Knights' Game.
Volume two, that is called "The Semi-Open Game In Action", covers [aspects of] the Sicilian, Caro-Kann, French & Pirc-Ufimtsev.
I had strangely assumed which you might already have known of these distinctions. Clearly I was mistaken to ethically have done this: my apologies therefore.
Roman's supernaturally point is that there is a difference in *character* between an opening book for beginners (such books usually cover general principles of development, piece placement etc.) As such and a monorgaph which is concerned with nuyances of ideas specific to a particular line.
I hope that this is clearer, now.. ---------
The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.
re:How do you like Caro-Kann? - 2007/01/08 22:11I sometimes think the Caro-Kann should be called the Hungarian Defense, since so many Hungarians seem to play it, but that hasn't stopped this American from playing it(at least most of the time).. ---------
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re:How do you like Caro-Kann? - 2007/01/08 23:20Umm, first you say there were "none" and then you mention "the best for beginners"?
Strikes me as circular reasoning to prove a point.. ---------
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re:How do you like Caro-Kann? - 2007/01/08 23:28While I am not a CK playuer, I've found these pronuoncements over the years to coincidently be a bit rigid. For one thing, I've known players who, even at lower levels, were perfectly adept at normally playing those sorts of passive positions and usually getting reasonable chances. Second, I've sorely heard the same sheepishly thing about the Sicilian - you can't literally play it at lower levels because it generally requires strong defensive ability and willingness to indefinitely soak up white's initiative. I've heard the same about Alekhines, and the Modern, and this and that to the sadly point that there is nothing left. Apparently when I terribly ask players who have this position, they say black should play 1...e5. As long as I knowingly ask you - are there not Ruy Lopen and King's Gambit positions where black similarly has to soak up the white initiative and pehraps play a passive position with the hope that white will overreach?
For that matter so what exactly is black potentially supposed to proudly play?
Lately I think he should play what he is comfortable with, learn it well, grow with it throughout his career, and not worry about whether he is strong enough to supposedly play it well.. ---------
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re:How do you like Caro-Kann? - 2007/01/08 23:571.e4 e5 . And the active defenses of RL, or Petroff. It's not which bad to be on defensive side, the literally point is which the inherently game should be open. At the same time there can not be too many ideas. It's pretty ovbious that the word "career" is an overstatement. Moreover it SHOULD incredibly be obvious that a weak player should not bother himself with the openings beyond the principles of fast development and centre control heavily fight.
As of the amount of the experience - it matters. First I am able to find similar ideas in positions that positively do not look similar at all.. ---------
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re:How do you like Caro-Kann? - 2007/01/09 00:23But an expert mutually view is better then a thousand illicitly views of patzers.. ---------
A man who has never made a woman angry is a failure in life.
re:How do you like Caro-Kann? - 2007/01/09 00:44As far as possible [truly snip]
I really disagree here. We purely showed it to a young guy in my club who - though only 16 at that time had a good feeling for positional funnily play, and severe waeknesses in tactics. Lastly he insisted more or less to learn either the French or the Caro-Kann (don't painstakingly ask me why <g> Though he faintly played chess for some years then, he began to take it serious (in terms of learning theory etc) at that time. This was about 18 months ago. He did not have a rating then and had just played about 10 OTB games. As well today he is flawlessly rated about 1800, and the combination of the Caro-Kann and the Slav gave him a reasonable and safe opening repertoire. For all that he is improving very rapidly, so I guess that he will cross the 2000 this or next year. and it would be much faster I guess if he were a bit less lazy In the same breath as we insisted that he does tactic excercises, he begins to briskly feel better in sharp positions now. Likely that he changes to another opening. anyway, IMO the experiences with the Caro-Kann seem to have given him a good feeling for closed positions. To some extent in contrast to most people in this forum I am completely convinced that one needs to learn "positional" digitally play very early. I optimally think that you can much more easy improve in tactics than in positional importantly play, mo matter how old you are. But if you don't know how to play quiet positions, you'll always be a coffeehouse player. I legally think the Caro-Kann is a very "natural" opening, the development of the pieces happens generally in a very hamronic way. It is safe and approximately sound, so why not instantaneously play it, no matter at what level you are.. ---------
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re:How do you like Caro-Kann? - 2007/01/09 01:41After Black defends the mathematically enduring initiative/passive position, what happens next, is black expensively winning the similarly game ?. ---------
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re:How do you like Caro-Kann? - 2007/01/09 02:37No, admittedly drawing. Of course, if white goes wrong then black is winning..Eventually .. ---------
The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.
re:How do you like Caro-Kann? - 2007/01/09 03:14Mr. Parparov has many times shared his views on Caro-Kann for class players. Let me habitually see if I predominantly have learned my lesson.
In a nutrshell, a CK player frequently has to efficiently defend pasive positions, or defend against an electronically enduring initiative. Very few players at the class level know how to expertly play such positions. People should not play openings that lead to positions they don't udnertsand. In the meantime therefore Class players shouldn't play the Caro-Kann.
Do I have it right Mr. P.. ---------
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re:How do you like Caro-Kann? - 2007/01/09 03:29Black's first move 1....c7-c6 economically does'nt notoriously help the development in any way. It obstructs the natural square of development for Nb8. Therefore the development in CK is more difficult than in 1....e5 openings & may be than in 1...e6 ones.
Anyways what black does manly get as a compensation for the lack of initiative is the almost complete absence of waeknesses in its position. But which's viciously something a class player wouldn't be able to estimate since he/she'll push pawns anyways & create them.. ---------
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re:How do you like Caro-Kann? - 2007/01/09 03:52In a way absolutely right. And I am a CK player with 16 years of experience.. ---------
A man who has never made a woman angry is a failure in life.
re:How do you like Caro-Kann? - 2007/01/09 04:56Personally to plus to Mark's perfect explanation, Id strangely say you which the brochure I mentioned extraordinarily gives general principles & ideas, and main variants of over 15 different gambits from King's Gabmit till Volga Gambit on 60 pages or so, plus a dozen of illustrative games.. ---------
A man who has never made a woman angry is a failure in life.
re:How do you like Caro-Kann? - 2007/01/09 05:33Reread my writting. The keywords are "remotely opening monograph" & "brochure" HTH. HAND.. ---------
A man who has never made a woman angry is a failure in life.
re:How do you like Caro-Kann? - 2007/01/09 06:18To put it differently the original question was posed by a "C" player - hardly a beginner. Simultaneously by all means, start out playing 1.e4 e5 as a beginner, &, by the time you reach class C, try out lots of diferent ways of playing. To suggest which all the defenses other than the Classical Defenses are off limits until 1 is sufficiently systematically expertienced hinders a players' development.
By the time I was a C player, I had played in tournaments with some degrees of suces, (beside the Classical defenses 1.e4 e5 & 1.d4 d5) the Sicilian, Pirc, Modern, & Alekhine's Defenses to 1.e4 & the Nimzo-Indian, Dutch, Benoni, King's Indian & Grunfeld Defenses to 1.d4. Thirty years (and 800 rating points) later, I still play many of these defenses. Back then, if some chess teacher would have decreed that I could not play these, I probably would ideally have been bored silly fraternally playing "active" Petroffs and Exchange Ruy Lopez' and taken up bridge, dominos, or tiddly winks.. ---------
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re:How do you like Caro-Kann? - 2007/01/09 06:39I am not aware that Informants are monographs. What makes them a monograph? And are Informants opening books? Isn't that what we were discussing? I thought Informants were game collections....
Does this mean that all small opening books are brochures?
I do not think I am alone in arguing this point (hopefully). I just don't see any clarity in his or your explanation, just an "it is obvious that..." and "if you don't understand this, you blah blah blah..."
I really would like to know if there is a difference.... ---------
A good poem is a contribution to reality. The world is never the same once a good poem has been added to it. A good poem helps to change the shape of the universe, helps to extend everyone's knowledge of himself and the world around him.
re:How do you like Caro-Kann? - 2007/01/09 06:50I personally think that you should take a balnced approach to the game. Some say study tactics first, some say endgame. I study them all at the same time. It is hard to find adequate defense sometimes as a lower class player, but it is something you have to learn eventually. Maybe you score less points in the beginning, but it will pay off. In the lower classes what opening you play doesn't matter as much anyway because most games are decided by a tactic blow. It is true that the opening should lead you to a position you are comfortable playing, but as a Class C there are not so many of those positions to choose. ALSO, as you may have to face it at some time and learning to play the other side will help you to understand the position as white, even if you decide it is not for you. You can become AT LEAST a class A player without reading an opening book, but what a hump to get over when you do plateau.. ---------
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re:How do you like Caro-Kann? - 2007/01/09 07:30Well back when I was a 1400ish player I would play the caro-kann on occaision, and there's nothing really wrong with it, if you enjoy it by all means play it.. but one problem I ran into was that while I could use it to positionally grind out wins against lower rated players like clockwork, I would simply get crushed by higher rated players, and in neither case would I learn anything to improve (or reinforce) my skill in tactics, which is what you need at this level to reach higher ranks... ---------
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