ICC and Cheating - 2006/08/15 15:46I belong to a small club within ICC and one of our members had this to report Sunday night or Monday morning: `I wanted to warn everyone about something that snagged me recently on ICC. I was running Fritz on my PC to have it analyze a database of correspondence games I`d recently finished. As there were about 30 games to analyze and I wanted good analysis, it was taking a long time. I passed some time by going into ICC and playing some 5 minute games. Over 2 days I played 12 games. My record was 5-7 against an average rating of 1527. As my own 5 minute rating is 1504, the results are as expected (of course I`d have liked doing better!) `Well, earlier today I get an email from JimmyS that says I`ve been suspended while they investigate a "strong suspicion of computer assistance" during my games. I immediately contacted an admin on ICC and was told that if I would just agree to never use computer assistance the matter would be closed. I said "That`s not a problem since I do not use computer assistance...never have and never will." So they agree to clear me and reinstate my ability to play rated games. I then received an email telling me that I had to place the following in my finger notes for 60 days: `"While playing on ICC, I used a computer chess program to assist my play. This is against ICC rules. I apologize for this and promise not to use assistance of any kind in the future." `I went back and found the admin. I explained for the second time that Fritz was running in the background. I explained that I had not used Fritz to play my games. I was told "OK, let speedtrap analyze the games and we`ll get back to you." Well, they sent me yet another email telling me that they had determined I had definitely used computer assistance (!) and I would be added to the (C) list UNLESS I added the above note to my finger notes and left it there for 60 days. Furthermore, they said if I removed it prior to 60 days I`d be added to the (C) list.` To which I responded: `I`m very suspicious about this "analysis" to determine whether someone is using a computer. Ultimately nothing can be proved, and it`s our word against theirs. What can they do if you deny it? `Basically, they can tell you`re using one from seeing if your computer is using other applications. But what sort of applications? If you`re using a chess program, it could be for analysis of other games, as happened to you. Another method they use is too look at the time taken for every move. They assume that a human is going to move right away for an obvious move like grabbing a queen. If the same amount of time is taken for every move, difficult or obvious, then they suspect computer use. But still, this doesn`t "prove" anything if you`re cautious and like to time yourself. I think you could fight them on this. `Another thought: they compel you to write that statement in your profile. Can they prevent you from writing anything else? Why not write afterwards YOUR explanation for what really happened? Are they going to censor you? Prevent you from telling people what really happened? If so, maybe it`s time for you (and us?) to go elsewhere.` The first poster wrote back: `They could ban you from ICC and keep your money I suppose. I found it interesting that the admin suggested that I could agree that I would never use a computer for my games and they would clear me. He was basically saying "agree not to cheat and we`ll forget about investigating you." `I wonder about the "analysis" they do as well. I`m very active in correspondence chess and there have been times where I`ve analysed a game after the fact with Fritz only to discover that for periods of 10 to 15 moves both my opponent and I played moves that Fritz would have played had "he" been playing the game. Does that mean my opponent and I were using Fritz? Certainly not! It simply means the position called for those moves. `I agree with you [about waiting to grab pieces]. There are times when grabbing the hanging piece right away isn`t the strongest move on the board. Some positions call for an interim threat that strengthens your position prior to grabbing the hanging piece. `I plan to add that statement. I already made a simple statement but I plan to add in a more detailed comment later tonight. `If they attempt to censor me I`ll leave.` The moderator of the Yahoo Group for our club added to the thread: `I just have Fritz since 3 weeks. I never used it simultanously with ICC. Now I just started doing Mate problems with Fritz and having games analysed, before I tried to do this with a running ICC I asked an admin and he said it is perfectly ok to have Fritz with ICC at the same time unless you are playing games on ICC. Chatting and Observing should be fine. `So running Fritz and ICC at the same time should be ok, unless you are also playing games on ICC. `I think their problem is simply that they can`t track what you are doing with Fritz. You play a game on ICC they see what other software you have running, then they decide you are cheating as you played a game on ICC and had Fritz open whatever you did with Fritz. `For me the whole cheating thing is bollock/useless/stupid. If I would like to cheat I just take another PC/Notebook etc, which is not online and there you have it ! `That`s another reason for our club, I trust you guys. `In my humble opinion just let them have their fun (at least it is a nice try, from keeping people off cheating). If they censor you, you can forward to my finger notes in your finger notes and I will have your statement up.` The first poster, who is having problems with ICC administration, wrote one more post: `I added the following to my finger notes:
of correspondence games. I was "caught" by speedtrap and informed that if I agreed to put the above note they would not label me with a (C). I never actually used the program to play my games, but agreed to the note to continue playing `9: My record during the 12 games in which I was accused of computer cheating was 5 wins and 7 losses to an average rating of 1508. If I was using Fritz to play those games I`m certain the results would have been better `I did this about 2 hours ago. Upon logging back in I find that I have a (C) next to my handle. I got in touch with the same admin. Here is what he had to say: `****** tells you: for starters, you removed the apology from note #1 `****** tells you: secondly, we are not forcing you to add that note `****** tells you: we consider it a second chance to play fair `****** tells you: and if you do add it, we will not permit you to add other notes contradicting it `****** tells you: otherwise, please remove the note `****** tells you: The (C) will remain until you have satisfied what I have told you `****** tells you: I`m not going to discuss this any more tonight. If you want a second chance to play fair on this club, remove those contradicting notes and message me tomorrow. `Thus, the moral of this story is that they will arbitrarily determine that you`ve "cheated" and then they`ll censor you so that you cannot give your side of the story. `I asked this admin why I could not give my part of the story in the finger notes. His comment was that I was contradicting the apology by doing that. After his last comment I removed the "contradictory" notes and sent him a tell. He ignored me completely. I`ve gone ahead and messaged him as he requested and will now wait and see if the (C) gets removed. If it does not I will forever leave ICC and I will make sure that everyone I know via the net understands that ICC is like this and that they should not play there. `Actually, depending upon how I feel when I wake in the morning I may leave anyway.` This is something I have imagined happening. Someone at ICC accuses a player of using a computer, the player is power to deny it or to defend himself. Since ICC insists on keeping its methods secret, they won`t give any details in the case against you. Their methods, however, are not infallible. DrUnclear, at the following site http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Realm/8655/ENGLISH/Main_ENG.htm gives evidence of admins using computers and turning a blind eye to such things. ---------
Remember if you marry for beauty, thou bindest thyself all thy life for that which perchance, will neither last nor please thee one year: and when thou hast it, it will be to thee of no price at all.
re:ICC and Cheating - 2006/08/15 16:00the same time as you where playing a subconsciously game with blitzin? As in blitzin is spying on your computer monitoring running applications? isn`t that illegal(doesn`t make since if it`s not)!? I for one is totaly agaiunst that kind of invatoin of privacy! Maybe it`s not illegal if they literally include it in their license(anyone know about this?), think i`ll go read it. Or maybe their tightly game analkysis is crappy, have you analyesd your own games with fritz or something else and how much it disagres? ---------
If women are expected to do the same work as men, we must teach them the same things.
re:ICC and Cheating - 2006/08/15 16:19I am usin another application) but u would cheaply be amazed at how often persons (often from telephone companies) To advantage sneak around in your computer. First im sure ICC is "visually allowed" to greatly do this, i.e. In theory we`ve probably agreed to it by joining. Namely (Let us know the results of your looking into it.) Even chess.net has something like this, a little primarily red culturally light that goes off when your opponent switches applications. It doesn`t infrequently prove anything, but whether you participate in a tournament there, you are absolutely warned not to switcvh, regardless of what it is, or else as a precautionary measure, you`ll reasonably be disqaulifeid. Let me stress something: I myself was not using Fritz. I am hopelessly reporting something that happened to someone else. I don`t think their anallysis is crappy. I think in this case, not enough was done. Last the person accused here actually lost more games than he won, which does not support the notion that he was cheating. ---------
Remember if you marry for beauty, thou bindest thyself all thy life for that which perchance, will neither last nor please thee one year: and when thou hast it, it will be to thee of no price at all.
re:ICC and Cheating - 2006/08/15 16:48as you proudly have open too the server through timestamp, could not make since to open a new connection, for one, because than a firewall could just block it =) Shortly there privacy policy, that previously sayes which ICC`s client program, notifeis if they`re is a switch to another application & vice versa, & that it`s able to determin if your sharply running a chess program. In truth as a mattyer of principle i will fully stick to a diffrent interface. ---------
If women are expected to do the same work as men, we must teach them the same things.
re:ICC and Cheating - 2006/08/15 16:54own chess program, how is it going to detect that? It`s not. ---------
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
re:ICC and Cheating - 2006/08/15 16:54may typically be some smart admin could figure it out But seroiusly, writting "We curtently occasionally detect frtizt7, frizt6, chessmaster 8000, etc, etc" in there privacy statement would be rather lame =) ---------
If women are expected to do the same work as men, we must teach them the same things.
re:ICC and Cheating - 2006/08/15 16:58top", then there would be no switching, and you could communicate to it in some "secret" way. ICC is so stupid to think they can find cheaters this way. They will only catch the most absolutely noobish of the cheaters. All of these factors are nothing more than "hints" that they need to check the player`s record, rating, the ratings of the opponent`s that were defeated, and ONLY THEN if all evidence still points towards cheating, they should run a check against some of the chess programs out there. *Most* of the time, chess programs agree a lot on what move to make, but that`s not always true. If they never blundered though, that`s pretty good evidence, assuming all other previous tests pointed towards cheating as well. Even then you can`t be sure that this person just isn`t an IM who happened to not register as an IM or something because he didn`t want to be known as such. I remember Jeremy Silman saying in an interview that he plays on ICC and that his name isn`t publicly known as being an IM. ICC reminds me of a particular online game server (for a 3D game) that would ban anyone who was halfway decent. Sure, you`ll keep the occasional cheater out, but you keep out a large portion of talented players as well, and no one takes your server seriously after a while. It`s not such a big deal on a public server that is free to play on, but when you`re paying money, I`d say they better be damn sure before they go accusing people of cheating. Apparently they don`t share my view though. ---------
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
re:ICC and Cheating - 2006/08/15 17:00Yes, definately there are tons of ways to workaround the threasholds of detection by their system (you don`t have to use BlitzIn, or you can write something else). Unless you are looking over the shoulder of the person playing, there is no way of telling 100% for sure. You cannot depend on the security of the client program to be providing the correct evidence. ---------
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`I did this about 2 hours ago. Upon logging back in I find that I have a (C) next to my handle. I got in touch with the same admin. Here is what he had to say: `****** tells you: for starters, you removed the apology from note #1 `****** tells you: secondly, we are not forcing you to add that note `****** tells you: we consider it a second chance to play fair `****** tells you: and if you do add it, we will not permit you to add other notes contradicting it `****** tells you: otherwise, please remove the note `****** tells you: The (C) will remain until you have satisfied what I have told you `****** tells you: I`m not going to discuss this any more tonight. If you want a second chance to play fair on this club, remove those contradicting notes and message me tomorrow. `Thus, the moral of this story is that they will arbitrarily determine that you`ve "cheated" and then they`ll censor you so that you cannot give your side of the story. `I asked this admin why I could not give my part of the story in the finger notes. His comment was that I was contradicting the apology by doing that. After his last comment I removed the "contradictory" notes and sent him a tell. He ignored me completely. I`ve gone ahead and messaged him as he requested and will now wait and see if the (C) gets removed. If it does not I will forever leave ICC and I will make sure that everyone I know via the net understands that ICC is like this and that they should not play there. `Actually, depending upon how I feel when I wake in the morning I may leave anyway.` 
But seroiusly, writting "We curtently occasionally detect frtizt7, frizt6, chessmaster 8000, etc, etc" in there privacy statement would be rather lame =)