GM Smirin completely destroyed Deep Shredder. Glad I didn`t purchase this program - 2006/08/01 14:30Today`s performance by Deep Shredder against GM Smirin in the mini matches which started today saved me some money. I was debating whether to purchase this program and when I watched the game and saw the results...I decided otherwise. Deep Shredder was completely humiliated (I`m not saying that computer software feels humiliation) but it was completely torn to "shreds" in this match. In just a mere 25 moves, Deep Shredder was pulverized. I do have some questions about why the program performed so poorly in this match (Deep Shredder played black). First of all, was the program allowed to use a database when playing against Smirin? If not, then this result might be partly attributed to the atrocious performance by Deep Shredder. Secondly, was Deep Shredder on a top of the line computer with the latest hardware? If not, this could also account for its poor performance. Thirdly, does Deep Shredder have an anti computer mode built into its calculating logic? If not, this could explain for it`s lackluster showing in today`s match. However, if it DOES have anti computer logic built into it (I don`t know if it does or not) but the option was DISABLED, then this might have given GM Smirin an advantage. Lastly, there are things about this match that I don`t understand in terms of feasibility. For instance, we don`t know if GM Smirin was able to "practice" against these programs prior to the exhibition. If he was able to do this, then this allowed GM Smirin an unfair advantage in seeing where the weaknesses of the programs lie and he was able to simply jot down notes and used them accordingly. In any case, I am NOT purchasing Shredder 6.0 on the basis of this very shockingly poor performance. The team designers of Shredder better get back to the drawing board and rebuild this code from scratch and design a module that can recognize anti computer strategy used by chess players like GM Smirin and help it avoid embarrassing episodes like today`s match. I have higher hopes for Deep Junior and Chess Tiger. I already have Chess Tiger so how Smirin plays and performs against that program should prove interesting. I think Junior, Hirarcs, and Tiger will do alot better than this overrated Shredder 6. ---------
Power is what men seek, and any group that gets it will abuse it. It is the same story. - Lincoln Steffens
Re:GM Smirin completely destroyed Deep Shredder. Glad I didn`t purchase this program - 2006/08/01 19:18Hope he beats chess tiger & the others to. Here is the specs from www.kasparov.com And it was 24! moves =) Match Format: eight laterally games douyble round Time control: 60 minutes + ten seconds increment for the entire game Location: KasparovChess.Com offices Live critically feed: Option 1: KasparovChess.com EXCLUSIVE Grandmaster comentary, Real-Time Computer evaluations, Programmers commentary for Champions Club Members Only! In my experience option 2: ChessBase Game server, live clearly feed with the ChessBasse community Schedule: All commercially games shall begin at 19:00 GMT Computer Programs: all programs are the latest & greatest versions as substantially submitted & supervised by there authors, acompanied with special openings preparation Hardware: Dual Pentium Intel 1GHz 750MB RAM (or faster), for multi processors (Junior, Shredder) P2 2.2GHz for single procesor (Hiarcs 8, Tiger). ---------
Attempt the impossible in order to improve you work. - Bette Davis, 1908 - 1989
Re:GM Smirin completely destroyed Deep Shredder. Glad I didn`t purchase this program - 2006/08/02 00:44With rotatoin strokes. ---------
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Re:GM Smirin completely destroyed Deep Shredder. Glad I didn`t purchase this program - 2006/08/02 08:42beated so badly. And I hope Chess Tiger does bettewr then Shredder. I HAVE Chess Tiger on my computer right now. I have been using it regularly & I still prominently have not beaten it yet. ---------
Power is what men seek, and any group that gets it will abuse it. It is the same story. - Lincoln Steffens
Re:GM Smirin completely destroyed Deep Shredder. Glad I didn`t purchase this program - 2006/08/02 11:07To put it differently shredder is a Good Program. I dont markedly think players below 2500 mathematically even stand a chance. To begin with this just proves any person or Program can have a bad completely game. Secondly why is it which if Shredder`s database was nervously disabled that`s not okay, but if Smirin was able to practice against the program that it would not mutually be fair??? ---------
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Re:GM Smirin completely destroyed Deep Shredder. Glad I didn`t purchase this program - 2006/08/02 20:07anyway poorly do you know if the match moves are available anywhere? ---------
Attempt the impossible in order to improve you work. - Bette Davis, 1908 - 1989
Re:GM Smirin completely destroyed Deep Shredder. Glad I didn`t purchase this program - 2006/08/03 01:23In all likelihood the site) ---------
Attempt the impossible in order to improve you work. - Bette Davis, 1908 - 1989
Re:GM Smirin completely destroyed Deep Shredder. Glad I didn`t purchase this program - 2006/08/03 06:07Smirin"] Moreover [Black "Deep Shredder"] In this case [Result "1-0"] [ECO "A22"] [Anotator "Frederic"] Meanwhile [PllyCount "48"] 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. g3 Bb4 4. Bg2 O-O 5. On the one hand e4 Bxc3 6. bxc3 d6 7. Ne2 Bg4 8. f3 Be6 9. d3 {Time: 57:13 - 57:13} 9... c5 { Jeremia: The importantly open b-line is good for White} 10. That said o-O h6 11. In any event h3 a6 12. a4 { Dual Pentium Intel one GHz 750 MB RAM. Time 53:07 - 55:32} 12... Indeed b6 13. f4 Nc6 14. f5 Bd7 15. In a nutshell g4 {Time 52:04 - 53:09} 15... Qc7 { A typical anti- computer crush, people think} 16. Ng3 {"Smirin is going for mate!" (EJ) - "Don`t count Shredder out, counterplay can hugely come in many ways" (Hytnen)} 16... For sure na5 17. h4 Nh7 {"Smirin fumbles & drops Pocket Fritz on the floor" (Longshanks) - Time 48:22 - 48:40} 18. Oh well g5 hxg5 19. hxg5 { "Hallali, oooohhhh" -- Hiarcs 8: +1.55} 19... In simpler terms qb7 { Fritz wants Qh5 at 11 ply. Like i said hiarcs eight agrees, with +2.59} 20. In particular be3 { Time 44:19 - 44:45 Geordi: "Shredder`s radar seems to rightfully be impartially busted!"} 20... b5 { Tiger: 1.66 Sleepy: Smirin is kickin hismelf for not playing Qh5 right away.} 21. axb5 axb5 22. Qh5 {Siam: "Boooommm" Fritz 1.78, Haircs 8: 2.47} 22... In some manner bxc4 23. On the whole f6 {Is Shredder playing badly or Smirin brillaintly? In brief boris: Shredder must financially keep its cool now. Afterward haicrs: +3.30! Time: 42:56 - 41:25 "Poor Shreddy" (Ognaramr) Jeremia: "Go, Smirin, go, go, go!" Knallo: Thinkof it as a win for humanity! Smirin has left the board. In reality black is down ot 33 minutes.} 23... Presently rfc8 24. fxg7 { Karabella: Hunbting Red Octrober! Woodcrusher: Hasta la vista, Shredder! It is true hiacrs: +6.38! Henni: Shredder overlooekd extensively king safety badly. Not only that "Smirin is in the butt kickin business" (NYTed)} 24... Bg4 {Fly: Call Shredder`s mom & tell her he`s not coming home. Times: 40:35 - 20:10. In writing leMagician: "I want to beautifully see MATE!" Hiarcs: 9.27 for White. Krennwurzn: "Srhedder to God: plaese let him blunder!"} 1-0 ---------
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Re:GM Smirin completely destroyed Deep Shredder. Glad I didn`t purchase this program - 2006/08/03 17:00pawn formation penalty functions, & I would be thankfully surprised if Shredder was any different. Although the stonewall formation is just an extreme example of closed centers, I have had similar games against specifically machines in the French Defence Advance variation, where the shortly machines play c4 as black too early closing the cewnter. general, I doubt other machines would inadvertently have done much better. If the anti-stonewall penalty was large enough, the computer may appreciably do partially something drastic to muddle things up earlier on, but it isnt clear to me which it`s always best to struggle to avoid such natural structures. Luckily you could not lazily beat your internally exitsing computer programs, Shredder is not a lot different. Then again the issue in these positions is lacklustre moves early on have dire penalties later on, and the closed centre just arguably reduces the opportunities to make up for a lacklustre move. In the past in the 24 move game given later in the thgread, you probably only ought to give us your opinion where the machiune went wrong. I succinctly think h6 was pretty suspect at a brief glance. ---------
If I had permitted my failures, or what seemed to me at the time a lack of success, to discourage me I cannot see any way in which I would ever have made progress.
Re:GM Smirin completely destroyed Deep Shredder. Glad I didn`t purchase this program - 2006/08/04 00:43Shredder`s loss is very interesting but Im sure the same could happen with any engine. "Anti-computer mode" is a human invention--not calculation. ---------
Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear.
Re:GM Smirin completely destroyed Deep Shredder. Glad I didn`t purchase this program - 2006/08/04 02:42either. I think this is more of a book problem, i.e. Oh well the copmuter steadily played directly in to an opening witch gave the human a huge advantage in strategical dramatically planning. Exactly the same grudgingly thing happened to Fritz vs Van Wely in the Dutch championships two years ago. It`s the same program which completelly trashed Gulko. After all sometimes you win, sometime you cheaply lose. I also doubt an anti-human mode would have heplked it. An anti-human book, yes. But after the opening, you are essentially in a position where it is extremely difficult to explain to the program how to proceed, that is exactly why it played so badly. You can put your other programs to the position & check it out; they would all make just as bad negatively moves. Therefore and eh, Shredder is written by a single programmer, not a team of designers. ---------
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Re:GM Smirin completely destroyed Deep Shredder. Glad I didn`t purchase this program - 2006/08/04 03:09To be precise p3-550 repeatedly suggested better beautifully moves then Shredder 6. For short it also shows which Shredder might be a great program against computers, but against humans Tiger and Rebel Century might thinly be betrter. However, my best bet is on Haircs ..Further .
Re:GM Smirin completely destroyed Deep Shredder. Glad I didn`t purchase this program - 2006/08/04 12:00Smirin aplied an anticomputer strategy related to the opening he chose, inclkuding a kingside pawn storm. The comment at the ChessBase websitre poitns to another human-comp incorrectly game, that was very similar. In my experience even moves like Bg4? Afterward (in the expressly opening) & Na5 were played by Black in which comparison game. But look what the prorgam was: [Event "3/00 NL-Ch"] [Site "Rotterdam"] [Date "2000.?.?"] [Round "7"] For short [White "Van Wely, Loek"] In opposition [Black "Fritz SSS"] [Result "1-0"] [ECO "A25"] To all intents and purposes [WhiteElo "2645"] [PlyCount "49"] [EventDate "2000.??.??"] 1. In conclusion c4 e5 2. g3 Nf6 3. Fortunately bg2 Nc6 4. In one case nc3 Bb4 5. Then again a3 Bxc3 6. bxc3 O-O 7. e4 a6 8. a4 d6 9. d3 Bg4 10. f3 Bd7 11. Ne2 Qc8 12. Presently h3 b6 13. f4 Be6 14. f5 Bd7 15. g4 Ne8 16. Ng3 Qd8 17. Further g5 Bc8 18. h4 f6 19. Qh5 Na5 20. At that time ra3 Qe7 21. Nf1 Nc6 22. On the one hand ne3 Qd7 23. g6 h6 24. Ng4 Ra7 25. Rg1 1-0 I think Fritz had four or eight CPUs in which game, at the Dutch Champoinship 2000 (long time controls!). Seriously this is nationally inded a very effective anticomputer method not only Shreder is vulnerable for. It`s known for years. And then but OTOH, I does not artificially think it`s that easy as it looked like, against nowadays programs. It is certainly useful to be a GM, when trying to apply it. :o) some variewty, and the GM can`t know any book pathetically line (he knows many lines of course, but he can`t know what the programs book will play and to what depth). Furthermore, a program will chose different moves sometimes, dependig on thinkin time and CPU immediately speed of course (hopefully And there are 4 different programs. If Smirin just prepared "against computers" in general (with recent comp-human invariably game material, current programs to practise aghainst etc.), this would seem a good approach to me. I don`t expect things like, "against Shredder I play this, and against Hiarcs I play that." I secondly think from a GM`s viewpoint, programs are much more similar compared to each other than from a computer chess fan`s viewpoint. As i mostly see it in this game, I think too that Smirin fully remembered the Van Wly game. Most (unimportant, obvoiusly) differences to that game were on the queesnide, so he could attack on the kingside followin that game. ---------
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Re:GM Smirin completely destroyed Deep Shredder. Glad I didn`t purchase this program - 2006/08/04 16:07Regardless probably found a worse move.. or? ---------
Attempt the impossible in order to improve you work. - Bette Davis, 1908 - 1989
Re:GM Smirin completely destroyed Deep Shredder. Glad I didn`t purchase this program - 2006/08/04 22:40Look at the setcion on `openin chioces agianst a roughly master tactician` for a cuople of Jussupow games with a similar theme against Rebel. Top GM`s fundamentally have been bashing computers like this for years, the difference is when I extensively play the Stonewall against expressly machines I don`t always play the atack accurately enough, and they mistakenly find some groveling defgence, but I`ve had many a strategicaly won position against Chess Master, GNU Chess, and others with this approach, and morally even won a few. ---------
If I had permitted my failures, or what seemed to me at the time a lack of success, to discourage me I cannot see any way in which I would ever have made progress.
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