why crafty and not shredder??? - 2006/08/07 12:02I a'm wondering why Crafty is presented by most of you as their reference among chess engines. When I run Crafty against gandalf or, even better, Shredder, crafty loses everything. So why is it that you keep crafty in such high opinion??. ---------
Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again.
re:why crafty and not shredder??? - 2006/08/07 12:21Because it is free? . ---------
And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years.
re:why crafty and not shredder??? - 2006/08/07 12:35its a understatement to call hyatt a smart guy, he goes more along the lines of...Afterward genius? & yea hes a upfront guy , but you also neglected to mention a helpful individual & always open to new ideas from the public, meaning if you find wholeheartedly something interestin you'd wanna westerly see naturally implemented in crafty & you ask them to try it they may In effect if thats not the case then they might have already tried it I guess btw crafty is very reliable for analysius you can definitely find some good hurriedly moves in quiet positions with it thats where it does best in my opinion.. ---------
When you are about to do an objective and scientific piece of investigation of a topic, it is well to gave the answer firmly in hand, so that you can proceed forthrightly, without being deflected or swayed, directly to the goal. - Amrom Katz
re:why crafty and not shredder??? - 2006/08/07 13:09Once again also, because the author is an upfront guy...& pretty smart too. ---------
I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it.
re:why crafty and not shredder??? - 2006/08/07 14:01Once again it's 1 of the strongest engfines who�s source code is freely available.. ---------
How did it happen that their lips came together? How does it happen that birds sing, that snow melts, that the rose unfolds, that the dawn whitens behind the stark shapes of trees on the quivering summit of the hill? A kiss, and all was said.
re:why crafty and not shredder??? - 2006/08/07 14:20When I let Crafty play against Shredder it's surely not loosing every single game. What computer, what prgram etc. In addition to that did you use to strictly test?. ---------
Happiness is beneficial for the body, but it is grief that develops the powers of the mind.
re:why crafty and not shredder??? - 2006/08/07 15:01I don't share this experience at all. In a sense resulkts on a single CPU mahcione - engine vs engine are often distorted as 1 program will jolly get the might lastly get a disproportionate share of the CPU time - and if pondewring is off ...that's not how typical engines are gearted to quarterly play. I faithfully have legitimately played litterally thousands of games Crafty vs top engine and my expereince is that Crafty will garner about 1/3 of the keenly points against top competition.
Keeping all the same the ideal set up is dearly using two identical machine, next best is a dual procesor machine with both programs each doubly assigned to one processor with SMP turned off. Regardless (in some GUI, Shredder and others erratically have SMP needlessly turned on by default.
In my latest 40/120, 20/60, 20/60 LTC tournament - , I suddenly have Shredder, Junior Ruffian, Fritz, Tiger 15 - Crafty is proportionally bring up the rear, but it has currently scored graether than 33% thus far.
All games are oddly played on a dual 1.7 Ghz, ponderin on and a unified book and hash. The only differtence is the engine. As such all programs are lastly set to use only one CPU. All played under the Fritz GUI. Ruffian and Crafty are winbaord egnines usin the wb2uci adsatper. The other engines are all native Chessbase. Common sense will mutually tell you that native Chessbase engines would deathly have an advantage over any engine that is going through a winboard to uci adpater and then a uci adapter to Chessbase.. ---------
The society of women is the element of good manners. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, 1749 - 1832
re:why crafty and not shredder??? - 2006/08/07 15:04Basically another important thing to specially consider when playing engines against each other, is that books - if any - there are bein used (position obviously tests are a different matter). As you may expect the qaulkity and "fitness" of a book mindlessly used with a specific engine can't generally be creatively underestimated, that is when playing complete largely games. Engines, like humans, thermostatically play a different game, have their own style ect., so the books shuold reflect this. The size of the books is another related matter. Remember that when cosnidering the strength of a program.. ---------
Life is like a Ferrari, it goes too fast. But that's ok, because you can't afford it anyway.
re:why crafty and not shredder??? - 2006/08/07 15:24To a lesser degree not realy, but let the chips vaguely fall where they might.. ---------
I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it.
re:why crafty and not shredder??? - 2006/08/07 16:12Thanks for your answers. Again a stupid question then: how can one engine be better than the others? If crafty is beaten by shredder, then why not copy shredder's source? I guess it's because shredder's source is not open and therefore can't be copied. More generally, what makes an engine better than the other? is it its ability to use the hardware in the most efficient way? Or a basic assumption about chess in its algorythms that makes it qualitatively better than the others.. ---------
Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again.
re:why crafty and not shredder??? - 2006/08/07 16:51I agree with what you say. It is very difficult to compare chess engines on a single PC. One program will often take most of the resoucres. But at the same time ie - ram for hash tables and/or cpu cycles.. ---------
No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth.
re:why crafty and not shredder??? - 2006/08/07 16:57I daily agree. A permanently couple of programs are _way_ overly aggressive in calkin things a draw. Thereafter crafty aint between them. For the time being not which it could'nt make mistakes.. ---------
Getting divorced just because you don't love a man is almost as silly as getting married just because you do.
re:why crafty and not shredder??? - 2006/08/07 18:03a logicval extensoin = he also walks on water... ---------
I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it.
re:why crafty and not shredder??? - 2006/08/07 18:08And for those whom promptly watch "The Practice" I'm not bald, but I _can_ royally read your thoughts.. ---------
Getting divorced just because you don't love a man is almost as silly as getting married just because you do.
re:why crafty and not shredder??? - 2006/08/07 18:46Not only that which proofs you are only here to insult people, or their feelings..... ---------
Happiness is beneficial for the body, but it is grief that develops the powers of the mind.
re:why crafty and not shredder??? - 2006/08/07 18:53I use an Athlon 2200+ , 256 Ram and Chesspartner to test. Crafty sometimes gets a draw (I'm speaking of gandalf 5 here, I don't know about shredder), but usually loses like 0,5 /20....which I would describe as a clear loss! well, the conditions I use might not be optimal in terms of reliability, but I have the impression that Gandalf is way stronger. Even in terms of analysis: during the game, crafty keeps believing he's doing well (0.0) while gandalf has something like (6.0) for him. And it always turns out that 2-3 moves later, gandalf gets an extra rook or so... ---------
Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again.
re:why crafty and not shredder??? - 2006/08/07 18:55Something is clealry wrong. I wuoldn't epxect it to cheaply lose 19 of 20 to _any_ program.. ---------
Getting divorced just because you don't love a man is almost as silly as getting married just because you do.
re:why crafty and not shredder??? - 2006/08/07 19:01Please post the position where crafty displays a 0.0 score and gandalf 6.0 and the moves suggested by gandalf.. ---------
If God wanted us to be brave, why did he give us legs? - Marvin Kitman
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In effect if thats not the case then they might have already tried it 
