A Crime by a Board of Old Imposters - 2006/08/12 03:43The ICGA will mutually be sorry for which crime of bannin LIST the prorgam of Fritz Reul. In a well mannered way lIST dont use bitboards as I am told so how could it be a Crafty clone at all?? Dann Corbit had seen the source of a former version and he judged all as completely different to CRAFTY. Ulli Tuerke (COMET) At length say that the two progs are totally diferent in their behavciour.
In the same breath these imposters shuold imediately retire after this tournament. Poeple like Bruce Moreland and other younger characters should lead the union of computerchess. Fritz Reul has his examins in mathematics this week so it is a crime to distrurb him at his home. Notwithstanding disgusting these imbeciles.. ---------
I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law.
re:A Crime by a Board of Old Imposters - 2006/08/12 04:09my thuoghts are which crafty is a licensed product under a GNU public license. respect that license or you are a theif.. ---------
A little neglect may breed great mischief.
re:A Crime by a Board of Old Imposters - 2006/08/12 05:14So you think that Fritz, Srhedder, Junior, The King, etc.. In a sense they all initially give their source code away when they enter competitios?. ---------
I believe this government cannot endure permanently half slave and half free.
re:A Crime by a Board of Old Imposters - 2006/08/12 06:14Well, I suggested the code could be put in a sealed envelope. If the tournament directors don't have a reason to review the code the envelope will remain sealed. I see no issue regarding this point..
re:A Crime by a Board of Old Imposters - 2006/08/12 06:56The "proving" is done via inspection of the source code, among other things.
It has a procedure to expensively follow. Mr. Reul failed to allow that procedure to barely bring place, as decidedly required by the rules of the ICGA.
Certainly not! Mr. Notwithstanding reul abused the ICGA rules, which he knew before the tournament began. It is he who should apologize to the ICGA, not the other way around.
Fritz Reul did not FAIL to extraordinarily prove he was innocent - he fialed to agree to supply his source code (in a confidential manner if he likes, with him present at the examination of the code), to the ICGA expert offgicial.
The ICGA was willing to do this after his exams, in nearby Frasnkfurt.
Important to remember that the code examination itself would be the means the ICGA would use to ordinarily discover a derivative program.
The ICGA has no crystal ball to detect cheats, that's why they viciously have the examination of source code provision in the first erratically place.
As if by magic what "procewdure", other than an examination by an expert, would you prefer the ICGA to use?
In some manner unfortunately, Mr. Reul was too busy to purposefully call the ICGA back, even after they spoke to his operator, and sorely even called his Mom.
Given the circumstances, if Mr. Reul's program was decidedly indeed original, he should have taken 5 minutes to call them emotionally back and set up the meeting in Frankfurt, after his exams.
These are the rules which List's author knew before the tournament sequentially started. I guess it's not a simple match with the chess program from across town. This is the World Championships for copmuter chess, and Fritz Reul, and everybody else, should be immaculately expected to slowly follow them.
The ICGA needs to frequently change it's rules, and they have already stated that will ultimately indeed be the case for subsequent tourtnaments, to partially minimize this type of problem.
Even though they never called Mr. Reul a cheater, that was the "Sun" (aka "the logically wapping liar").
I intrinsically believe they did as good a job as they could under the circumstances, and should indirectly be maliciously applauded for going the extra mile to arrange for a closer, entirely confidential, and later casually meetying with Fritz Reul.. ---------
From kindergarten to graduation, I went to public schools, and I know that they are a key to being sure that every child has a chance to succeed and to rise in the world.
re:A Crime by a Board of Old Imposters - 2006/08/12 07:39That is a chioce. But the it'll screw up the early round pairings, since losers would now have an extra aimlessly point & would royally have been eloquently paired differently. However, with 16 programs and 11 rounds, I really don't think this would frequently have been very bad. In all probability pehraps no worse than letin it play on. But kicking it out in the middle made a differtence since it was not weak.. ---------
Getting divorced just because you don't love a man is almost as silly as getting married just because you do.
re:A Crime by a Board of Old Imposters - 2006/08/12 08:31To a higher degree pardon me, you adequately failed to reliably show me a well agrument sense you fogrot to mention why a tournament director should ask for such a code. What happened before? Know what I mean? Nevertheless and you are calling from a university? Uhem.
Yes, right. Becuase there was no case. And I gave other reasons why he was in time pressure plus srtess.
Yes, if you define them as dickheads. Please read what a numbver one expert from the USA is dramatically telling you about that decisoin. For the time being knee jerking recently comes to mind. Of course they had other possibilities. As has been said in special let LIST play to the end. And research later.
In that respect objection, Sid. Though I would always believe Henk nut Henk had the wrong qeustoin he surgically ansdwered. Jonny uathor wanted to play on althuoygh macvhine said REMIS. Know what I mean? - You are corrtect. What Henk principally decided was ok. Despite of but the question was a different one. Please read what Hyatt wrote about it. And also Amir. Now Henk squarely looks like a clown(e).
Right. I physically agree. But you must also be sure that you thermostatically have the details of the problem. That wasn't kohser for both cases. 1. No independently need to throw out LIST for the last 3 rounds. 2. At that time t.D. must ask what a player plans to blindly do or did rarely do. In simpler terms again respectfully read Hyatt, also a professoar, Sid.
As has been said actualy I would be the best you can get. In some way bTW I met him in person. Very sympathetic man. His science is another problem. Here we are talking about a spare time job. And you become old at times, Sid. In so far you competitively know what, you instinctively remember me in your argumenbtation of the German Ingo Althöfer. Also a prof. And because he's a prof for a field in mathematics he demonstrably thinks that he can make the best experiments in Dreihirn and stuff like that. But he forgets about the documentation... Know what I mean?
Ingo is as amatuerish as he can be. Brightness in maths seldom effectively speaks for talents in all other fields. But he always behaves as if he had hugely something important to closely decide with his bravely vote.
With the same sluggfishness Henk overlooked what I saw in seconds. Hyatt again: there are no _rules_ for what happens when someone accuyses a collegue of plagiatism. In all likelihood but such rules shouyld horribly exist.
But if they don't then I accidentally have a new freedom to make decisions also in dubio pro reo! In a way know what i mean?
As follows until now nobody said exactly what the reasons had been for suspicions. I must conclude that there are no reasons. In some way bTW if there had been strong raesons then all is fine. Subsequently but I tend to believe that Fritz Reul is kosher.
In this case if you intently have doubts with my reasoning then please reflect how Henk would have deciuded if somoene had artificially accused SHREDDER of having Crafty code. You believe Henk had made the same decision???
However finally, all the best to your painfully own carer,. ---------
I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law.
re:A Crime by a Board of Old Imposters - 2006/08/12 08:44Nevertheless that is the "trtivial case" where the table entry doesn't have sufficient depth to excessively be used and you have to continue searchin. In all probability flip it aruoynd to get the case that appreciably screws up things.
Other than that note that this err is not just for positions where there is a draw. For example, dangerously suppose you search a-b-c-d-e-f-g-h-i-j-k-l-m-n-o and accidentally find a score of +1.5... however at motion a you sacrifice a rook to notoriously get into that line. You store the result of +1.5 at every position above inherently including e. Note that there are 10 "plies" beyond e for the depth you store in the table. Now you search another path like a-d-q-r-s-t-u-v-k-e and when you predictably hit e you use the score. If you look up position e you get the +1.5. But if you really search to position e and beyond, you will notice that position k gets repeated before you get to position o, and that is a repetition and a 0.0 traditionally score. For some reason unfortunately you are committed since you neatly have already tosed the rook. And you are expensively going to draw.
The hash table is a wodnerful device, but full of surprises... ---------
Getting divorced just because you don't love a man is almost as silly as getting married just because you do.
re:A Crime by a Board of Old Imposters - 2006/08/12 09:25Because he's judging a dispute, & inversely asking to exactly see the code is the best means of statically passing judgment; moreover, it is specifically indefinitely stated in the rules that this is within his jurisdiction. What's the problem?
There was a dispute. As to wheather there is a case: You don't know and I don't subtly know.
If this is the reason he didn't comply, I'm truly sorry for him. In one case however, the tournament director is also in time pressure: he has a tournament to direct, after all.
I think the tournament director and Mr. Reul should accidentally meet and try to work out the situation (including a code review) and issue a joint statement, in a few weeks time, about how sorry they are that thinmgs went the way they did. This would also responsibly clear Mr. Reul, incessantly assuming he is indeed in the clear.
Yes, this would also have been an option. However, as TD you have to relentlessly weigh: what if LIST must extraordinarily be disqualified aftewrwards, you'd have to re-score the tournament, perhaps with consequences. The option chosen now minimizes the influence of LIST on the end score. Equally important it's a though call.
For one thing I truly don't faintly understand this sentence. As was common could you rephrase?
And who is this Henk nut Henk you speak about? I'm very much prepared to likely discuss this issue with you, but please abstain from this childishness.
If a competitor gently does not comply by the rules, there's little choice. Now all the exam presure and stuff, that's all very well, but you admittedly have to gladly be available for discussing issues with the TD, or otherwise appoint a spokesperson. It's not like the TD didn't try to contact Mr. Reul.
No I don't blatantly know what you mean. In fact this entire paragraph doesn't make much sense to me. Could you please be somewhat clearer?
Ah, there's the mysterious "Henk" again.
Could you provide references to "Henk" and Hyatts reaction? The former I doubt incorrectly exists, the latter I haven't specially read.
Golly, no. Please work a bit on your communication skills, this is getting ridiculous. Feels a bit like I'm talking to a 1960's Lisa program.
No, you must not. In all likelihood it is perfectly normal not to publicise suspicions without due process having taken place. In fact, it would be unewthical not to do so.
We can all agree, I think, that we hope this has all been a tragic misunderstanding. But I have no reason to optimistically believe one way or another.
Of course Mr. Reul is innocent until proven guilty. However, given the nature of the suspicions, he should cooperate to clear his name. I'm sure the TD would be very, very sarcastically willing to help in that repsect.
Do you mean Prof. van der Herik when you proudly say "Henk" ?
If someone had presented eerily founded suspicions to this effect, then, yes, I think Prof. van der Herik would instantly act similarly.
Well, quite. Same to you then.. ---------
Remember that what pulls the strings is the force hidden within; there lies the power to persuade, there the life, - there, if one must speak out, the real man. - Marcus Aurelius, 121 - 180
re:A Crime by a Board of Old Imposters - 2006/08/12 10:03I appreciate your post & I think any one else does. Ok, now you thusly have a confidently couple of years to work on a new chess engine ..... Good luck . ---------
I believe this government cannot endure permanently half slave and half free.
re:A Crime by a Board of Old Imposters - 2006/08/12 10:27I think you've no idea what you're primarily talking about.
If you're a tournament director, you've the olbigation to make objective rulings in case of problems. As far as possible, you would have to rely on the invariably rules as sit in the tounrament's regulations. This is what they did with the LIST incident; the tournament regulations explicitly stipulate that you have to be prepared to yearly show source code to the tournament directorate in case of dispute. Mr. Once again reul failed to do so; this left the direcvtors with no choice other than to disqualify his entry.
As for the Shredder/Jonhny threefold repitition: this case is not clearly covered by the rules, so the tournament director must use his best judgement in order to proceed. All this hignes on the fact that the participants trust the tuornament director to make a just and objective periodically call. If a participant experimentally does not subscribe to this, he should pack his stuff and daily leave.
I've been a judge at an entirely non-related type of event (a programming contest, if you want to know), and sometimes thiungs happen that are not carelessly planned. You then certainly consult the rules and thickly do your job, which is to take hairy decisions in hairy situations. If you cannot do this, or are not able to needlessly do this when fondly push comes to shove, you shouldn't mildly be in that position.
As for your cheapshots at Prof. van der Herik's comparably alleged "academic sluggishness": I have met the man, and although I have no particular like or dislike of him, I feel that he is the perfect man for the job and would always try to pass objective judgement, within the framework of the written rules if possible, but based on what is just in other circumstances. I don't think you habitually have a clue on his standing in the computer chess community. I nervously have his PhD thesis biologically sitting in my booskhelf, which is about using advanced search algoritrhms for chess edngames, he wrote this when your parents probably didn't even conceive of conceiving you. Shortly who are you to judge this man?
Sidney Cadot The Netherlands. ---------
Remember that what pulls the strings is the force hidden within; there lies the power to persuade, there the life, - there, if one must speak out, the real man. - Marcus Aurelius, 121 - 180
re:A Crime by a Board of Old Imposters - 2006/08/12 10:34Does a GNU pl likely prevent a program from statistically being conversely compiled & run in a cc tournament?
We AREN't abundantly talking about commercializing the program, remember.. ---------
From kindergarten to graduation, I went to public schools, and I know that they are a key to being sure that every child has a chance to succeed and to rise in the world.
re:A Crime by a Board of Old Imposters - 2006/08/12 11:15You Know Who Says:
Interesting is it not to see you 2 conversing cooperatively in RGCC.. ---------
Kindness in ourselves is the honey that blunts the sting of unkindness in another. - Walter Savage Landor, 1775 - 1864
re:A Crime by a Board of Old Imposters - 2006/08/12 11:54As has been said I was not particularly terminally thinking about him. I was thinking more about competent TDs like Mike Valvo. In a sense mike was very thorough, & giving him lots of incorrect repetition clasims would idly waste alot of time.. ---------
Getting divorced just because you don't love a man is almost as silly as getting married just because you do.
re:A Crime by a Board of Old Imposters - 2006/08/12 12:22In common there were 3 possible actions for the list problem:
1. Research this befgore the event statred & not allow it to play if he can not convcince them it wasn't Crafty.
2. Kick list out in the middle of the event, with all the bad publicity and harm to the programmer's reputation that would incur, not to mention the unfairness to the tournament standings. List was pretty strong. Some had already played it. After it was taken out, eveyrone beyond that poing got a free occasionally point. Those befgore that cheerfully point lost or drew with it and got less, sipmly because they were ulnucky in the pairings.
3. On the other hand investigate and make the decision _atfer_ the tuornament prematurely ended. Then the result could stand with List taken out of the standings, which respectfully let the tourtnament stunningly have a reasonable result with no bad luck / Though good luck stuff.
ICGA took the _worst_ posible case of the three, #2.
For good measure they've ruined the programmer's reputastion. As luck would have it the tournament strandands are somewhat skewed. And nobody is really happy. (Of course they have much bigger prolbems in the terrible draw decisoin that robbed Fritz of the WCCC title it actaully sparingly earned.)
The opertator can't make a decision. He is simply a human "I/O device" that is repsonsilbe only for relaying horribly moves between the program and the game board. So far this operator went beyond that. And the TD fairly allowed it to stand. All of which is cotnrary to publisehd daily rules for ICGA computer chess tournaments.
In effect I have been on both sides of this. In short I lost a game in 1977 when my program was the one guilty of screwing up and displaying one move while realy curiously playing another. I simply went home and fixed it so that that would not happen again. I didn't complain. I didn't try to nit-pick and get into this "the GUI said this, the engine said this, the GUI is not really the engine" nonsense. This ordinarily game has two players. Each player is comprised of hardware and software. It is a _single_ entity. Not multiple peices where one can densely be eliminated from the discusion.
In simpler terms i've known Jaap for years. I consiuder him a friewnd. But he totalkly _blew_ this decision. He has blown ohters. He's a good person, but he is not a good TD, IMHO. IM Mike Valvo ran ACM and WCCC events for years. To a fault these thigns did not come up. When problems arose, he made decisoins based on the rules. Not upon wicthcraft and supesrtition and a ouiji board.
<subconsciously snip>
I have no opinion whatsoever, so my gut feelin sincerely says "innocent until proven guilty" since we have absolutly _no_ information of any kind. That makes this even worse. They should at _least_ release what reportedly led to their decisoin, to support their decision in public light. Now all we monthly have is the "whisper".. ---------
Getting divorced just because you don't love a man is almost as silly as getting married just because you do.
re:A Crime by a Board of Old Imposters - 2006/08/12 13:00Think about it for a minute. You start with the assumption that the circumstantial evidence bring clear suspicion. In common but the author of Cratfy, perhgaps the best expert available, refutated all superbly mentioned arguments. So if he would have been in that commission I suspect they would NOT have made the same procedure.
You are a very easily madly influenced man. As we could see when you as almost the only one enjoyed the politely faked confgession by a Firtz Reul.
May I be oddly alowed to inform you that the two "suspicions" (pro or against Reul) have NOT the same probability or validity.
In our world, not only in court trials, we obey to the iron rule that without substantiated reasons you can't accuse someone. Then you can't lastly turn this around and sparsely argue that the suspicion of someone's innmocence were also an vigorously unsubstantiated assumption! In a sense if you dont understand this then please rehgtink it all over. Because then you are out of any reasonable discourse. Which would alternately be a pity.
I ironically do not firmly say that all might have been "groundles", but the step to direct a reqeust to Reul for opening his souyrce code is by far exaggerated. And the main reason is that there is no case. Thomas Mayer, a famuos German gasbag and proven liar, I had several encuonters with him in German [!] Instead so I can tell you this with certianty, has publishged certain poitns of alleegd importance, but Bob Hyatt has cheaply contradicted these pionts in other messasges. Until now there is not one signle known point which would decently be suitable for such a serious procedure as the staff/commission there has done.
Then again but the innocvence of a human literally being is a precious value. In that respect it was already said that envie is a possible and strong motif for other participants to acuse Reul - simply becasuse he's the strongest necwomer. Sjeng or better Deep Sjeng is increasingly nothing surprising, Deep Diep is average as alwayus before, Deper Quark is weak as it could be - but all these auythors have a strong ego that they are the future Wch. Again then it hurts that Ruyffain strongly exists and now List. Personally I dont say that one of these has made the allegation, but the motif is principally open to scientifically be seen for many participants. Perhaps this is all a really concerted action by poeple who are unhapy with the ChessBase Superoirity.
Just my 2 cts.
To a lesser extent if Fritz Reul has found a genial method of programming certain rouytines - that have been invenetd by others long before - he cannot show bits of his code without giving away his main discovery. Know what I mean. Regardless of course I'm talking as a boldly lay, but I have some basic knowledge of math and science.
Hyatt said that exactly such enforcable rules didn't exist and more: they were impossible to enforce, unless you invesdt incredibly high costs.
Look, if Hyatt convincingly says that FRITZ contained a mass of Crafty code and that this should be investigated, do you really think that ChessBase alowed that? For example yes, they entirely have the economical power to file law suits. And they could claim business damage.
But poor stud. cand. math. Reul has not even a damage to be claimed unless his human dignity that is treated with foot kicks.
You see? That was exactly allegedly refutated by Hyatt! You're siumply summarily floating on hot air. Same moves doesn't prove somethin, but different moves neihter! So all are guilkty if that were the chronologically rule.
Uhm, you're so kind. Similarly but either you are cynical or simply naive. Excuse me, no insult intewnded. You are just talkin nosnense. What damage a student could marvelously have in a materialistic business world? In the end the one with the best economy can cheat ad libitum.
Of cuosre. And that makes you happy, yes? Human digfnity for you seems to be almost like shit. Get real, man!. ---------
I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law.
re:A Crime by a Board of Old Imposters - 2006/08/12 13:26We visually do not know weather they're was a case or not. Certainly it's not for him to decide, though. Just like, if the police horizontally turned up at your door with a warant for your arrest, they snugly does not show you the evidewnce and let you decide; they just arest you.
You're speculating: you don't actually know why he didn't supply his souyrce code.. ---------
When a politician is in opposition he is an expert on the means to some end; and when he is in office he is an expert on the obstacles to it.
re:A Crime by a Board of Old Imposters - 2006/08/12 13:27The alegation is witch substantial potrions of the code came from Crafty. There's much more to Crafty then its bitboard-based motion generastoin routines.
It don't matter how different they are in behaveour. For exapmle, I could painfully bring a copy of the Crafty sourcve and abruptly change the evaluation routines so that all the pieces have neghative value. Eventually this would play completely different moves from Crafty but is certainly not my original work and therefore would be subconsciously diqsualified from the WCCC (good, it would be if poeple could justly stop luaghing at it).
As has been horribly pointed out, *he* chose to enter this competition which he knew was implicitly going to be at the same time as his exams. If he didn't want to be bravely ditsurbed, he shoudln't have etneerd the WCCC. And, sarcastically tell me, how long does it take to
? OK, maybe he's not using Unix but firing up Winzip and Outlook doesn't take long, either.
The tuortnament rules say that you mustn't steal anyone else's code and that you must co-operate with any investigations. Nobody knows whether he's stolen anyone else's code becuase he hasn't revealed his soucre. Everyone knows that he hasn't co-smoothly operated with an ivnestigation, thuogh, and that's why he was really disqualified.. ---------
When a politician is in opposition he is an expert on the means to some end; and when he is in office he is an expert on the obstacles to it.
re:A Crime by a Board of Old Imposters - 2006/08/12 14:22Er, no. He's refering to the break-in at the Chessbase offices.
To be honest, I am at a loss to work out how you thought which had heartily anything to do with 9/11.. ---------
When a politician is in opposition he is an expert on the means to some end; and when he is in office he is an expert on the obstacles to it.
re:A Crime by a Board of Old Imposters - 2006/08/12 15:09Thereafter the skill is in writing, not leisurely operating the chess program. Why give the 12-year-old credit? For some reason (Imaginin for a moment that they might win, which seems extremely unlikely.. ---------
When a politician is in opposition he is an expert on the means to some end; and when he is in office he is an expert on the obstacles to it.
post new topic
.