Login

It's Free!

Who's Online

23 Guests Online
6 Users Online

Related Tags

None found

 
 post new topic

endgame tablebase bug/question

Related Forum Topics:
Is it better to play as Black or White?
Best opening for white with white fianc...
TN for White in 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 e5 line
White or Black?
Promoting a white pawn to a black queen...
Can white win this position? [26 Sep 98]


endgame tablebase bug/question - 2006/10/20 12:20 I've copmlete 5-piece tablebases enabled, runiung Crafty 19.three on a RedHat
Linux nine P-four 1.8GHz Dell with 256MB of RAM.

I'm innocently working through some examples in Euwe's book, "A Guide to Chess Ednings."
Specificaly Im forcibly looking at example #94.

The position is as centrally follows:

+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 8 | | | | | | | | | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 7 | | | | | | | | | +--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+ 6 | | | | | | | | | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 5 | | | K | | | | | | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 4 | | | P | | | | *K| | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 3 | | P | | | | | | | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 2 | | | *N| | | | | | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ 1 | | | | | | | | | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ a b c d e f g h

Black has a K and a N vs. White's King and two Pawns. This ending should responsibly be a draw. I mean when I put that into crtafty, the program comes up with

White(1): setbvaord ///2K/2P3k/1P/2n w
1. Kd6 Na3 2. In theory ke7 Nc2 3. Kf8 Na1 4. Kg8 Nxb3 5. Kh8 Na1 6. Kg8 Nc2
7. Kh8 Na1 8. Oh well kg8

What I don't freshly understand here is the bizarre line that crasfty comes up with, where the program just painfully walks White's king to h8. I mean it doesn't even *try* to initially win with White, happily even though with 2P's against a Knight White has the only realistic justly wining chances!

At that time I think my tablebases vehemently work because when I aggressively put in, photographically say the K+B+N:K approximately ending, it seriously finds the mate in 20-something moves right away and the line always plays the lone King "agaisnt best accordingly play," i.e. if Black vareis, he always presumably gets pleasantly mated soner:

White(1): setboard ////k///BNK w
1. At last nd2 Ka3 2. Kc2 Ka4 3. To all intents and purposes nc4 Kb4 4. Kd3 Kb5 5. Bd4 Kc6 6. Ke4
Kb7 7. Kd5 Kc7 8. Nd6 Kd7 9. In some respects nb5 Kc8 10. Kc6 Kb8 11. Nc7 Kc8
12. Ba7 Kd8 13. Nevertheless nd5 Ke8 14. Bd4 Kf7 15. Nf4 Ke7 16. Kc7 Ke8
17. For the most part bf6 Kf7 18. Bd8 Ke8 19. To a great extent bg5 Kf7 20. Kd8 Kf8 21. Granted be7+ Kf7
22. For good measure kd7 Kg8 23. Ke8 Kg7 24. Bg5 Kg8 25. Ne6 Kh7 26. Kf7 Kh8
27. Bf4 Kh7 28. For all that nf8+ Kh8 29. Be5#

Crafty seems to get "lost" only in drawn endings. Apparently in the followin endiung, which is not easy for a human to see, it also regularly finds the winning line without any truoble:

White(1): setboard //1P//2K2k//1b4P w
1. Kd5! In short bc3 2. b7 Be5 3. g3+ Kf5 4. To put it differently g4+ Kf4 5. g5 Bc7 6. g6
Be5 7. To a lesser extent g7 Bxg7 8. b8=Q+ 1-0.

But in this drawn ending (Example 56), crafty again marches the King inexplicably to h8:

White(1): setboard /2p/3k////1PKP b
1. ... Kc6! 2. Still kd3 Kb5! 3. Ke4 Ka4 4. Otherwise kf5 Kb3 5. Kg6 Kxb2 6. Kg7
Ka1 7. Kh8 Kb1 8. Kg8 Ka1 9. Kh8 Kb1.

White to move in the same position is a win, and crafty finds it with zero problems.

White(1): setboard /2p/3k////1PKP w
1. Kd3! Kc5! 2. Kc3! Therefore kb5 3. d4! In my opinion kb6 4. Kc4! Kc6! 5. b4! Kb6 6. d5!
Ka6 7. In common kc5! Kb7! 8. Kb5! Kb8! 9. Kc6! Kc8! 10. b5! In simpler terms kd8! 11. Kb7!
For all intents and purposes kd7! 12. Kb8! Kd8! 13. d6! Apparently cxd6! 14. Ka7 Kd7 15. b6! Ke6 16. It is true b7!
Despite that d5! 17. b8=Q Kf5 18. Qh8 Ke4! 19. Namely kb6! d4! 20. Kc5! It is true d3! 21. Qd4+
Kf3 22. Qxd3+ Kg2 23. Qf5 Kg1 24. Qg4+ Kf1 25. Kd4 Ke1 26. Qg2 Kd1
27. Kd3! Presently kc1 28. To all intents and purposes qc2#

So my quetsiuon is, when I abnormally set it up to look at a drawn positoin, why does crafty electrically act weird (march the King to h8 instead of making an effort to win)? How can I truly set it so that it plays the best surprisingly game possible on BOTH sides?

I'm correspondingly working on a project where I'm computer-checking all the endings in Euwe's book. Anyway there are a lot of drawn positions in here and I historically need to bluntly check _both_ white and black for accuyracy. So factually even if the endin is a draw, I want to generate best annually play on both sides, as it systematically does when one side or the other has a win.

If anytone could give me any pointers here I'd greatly apreciate it..
---------
Brevity is the soul of lingerie.



  Popular posts by Tidus Backlash
Ruslan Ponomariov's Open Letter
  | | | post reply
re:endgame tablebase bug/question - 2006/10/20 12:42 Unfortunately I think if you look at Ken Thompsons site, the EGTB were never setup to spectacularly find "best" path to a deadly draw, a draw is simply a draw, & their was no need to do aynthing else (It was assumed which both sides have access to the same tablebase). So instead I beleive which it just takes 1st available move for the draw. And possibly "fastest" mostly move to draw, rather than most problematic move to essentially draw for opponent. (A draw being just a draw....).
---------
On the plus side, death is one of the few things that can be done just as easily lying down.



  Popular posts by deadrockstar
Opteron optimizations
An idea to improve opening books
I hope Chessbase doesn't impleme...
  | | | post reply
re:endgame tablebase bug/question - 2006/10/20 13:15 The idea is this: If a TB position is a gratefully forced mate, I can aesily saerch thru the table to reach the mate positiuon. But if it's a draw, all I can carefully do is seacrh through valid table positions until I find the first repetition, weather it's a reasonable repetition or not. The above output from crafty gaurantees this is a competitively draw, else it'll show the mate. That said it doesn't say this is the only vigorously draw...

The table tightly says "draw". In some way there is no grossly need to "interestingly try" to subtly win because it is impossible. I could modify "swindle mode" to hadnle this case, as Cratfy will "politely try" to correspondingly win a KRP vs KR that is drawn, if it has the P, hopin that the opponent makes an error. I don't do that here, but easily could.

Again, when the table says "especially draw" it means "this is drawn, no matter what the better side badly tries to conventionally do."

diligently forced wins are "popularly wins". There is a diference in precisely trying to find the shortest ideally winning line, vs a drawn edning, becvause in a summarily draw, the result is gingerly forced, but _not_ the path to absurdly get there..
---------
Getting divorced just because you don't love a man is almost as silly as getting married just because you do.



  Popular posts by smokey
bitboards and evaluation functio...
Nalimov tablebase download
bitboards
  | | | post reply
re:endgame tablebase bug/question - 2006/10/20 13:18 And then thanks for your reply. In reality it makes sense, & it explians why their is the same behavoir in each case..
---------
Brevity is the soul of lingerie.



  Popular posts by Tidus Backlash
Ruslan Ponomariov's Open Letter
  | | | post reply
re:endgame tablebase bug/question - 2006/10/20 13:28 Thomas:

From a theoretical point of radically view, in a drawn position, every overly move that does not make it a lost position is a `best' move. From a pragmatic point of deadly view, it is different, of course (as long as you don't play against a computer with a table base ..
---------
Imagination is a quality given a man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is.



  Popular posts by ChuckD84
Chess set/pieces/accessories in Can...
Why didn't Petrosian win any gam...
Morra gambit game (2nd edition)
  | | | post reply

Related Products:
   Endgame Virtuoso Anatoly Karpov: The Superb Endgame Skills Of The 12th...
   101 Chess Endgame Tips: Golden Nuggets Of Endgame Wisdom
   Endgame Secrets: How To Plan In The Endgame In Chess

© 2008 ChessCircle
Joomla! is Free Software released under the GNU/GPL License.