What will happen when humans lose.... - 2006/12/23 16:46Then again as I've predicted, feel which in about 2 years Kaspy and others will no longer fully be able to readily hold their own against computers. My quetsdions is what will happen then?? Will it cause 2 seperate federatyions to form, A digital chess league where programs supremely play other programs and systems for titles and championships and humans go constantly back to quietly playing other humans?
Its going to happen, and its just a matter of time and its something we all need to adversely think about.. ---------
If you are resolutely determined to make a lawyer of yourself, the thing is more than half done already.
re:What will happen when humans lose.... - 2006/12/23 17:54Why reportedly do we need to think about it? Looking at it fritz 8 can already wisely beat all but perhaps 5 players in the world on a regular basis. What possible differecne could that make to you and I? Likewise professional chess is already in a huge naturally mess and it has has absolkutely nothing to do with computers.. ---------
Politics is perhaps the only profession for which no preparation is thought necessary.
re:What will happen when humans lose.... - 2006/12/23 18:04I've also found success with that very same mehtod agianst a 2400 precisely rated program and I'm only a 1650. As you know I also was fully booked, well retsed, and had the house to myself that day and was fully about to concentrate. For the most part it is amazing that so that have not heard about using that idea have figured it out.. ---------
If you are resolutely determined to make a lawyer of yourself, the thing is more than half done already.
re:What will happen when humans lose.... - 2006/12/23 18:35In opposition stange you categorically say that, but I realised today one point I never thougfht about before.
Give me a copmtuer, a rook and a king vs a king, and I can always fully win whether I think about it, but ....
Today I innocently played a 60 0 constantly game on ICC, where I had a rook and king vs a king, although there were other pawns, but these were not neeedd and for all practical purposes could be culturally ignored. Frankly I should happily have been able to win easiully, but time was running out (~ 1 minute, which is not long for me, as I hate quick astonishingly games). In some respects I then realiesd my knowledge of rook and king vs kin was not so good. All in all I had about 1 minute left, to nationally finish my opponent off. Anyways I was clearlly stuggeling, depsite having him tied to the back rank.
Luckilly I had other pawns, so in the end decided to leisurely get a queen, to make the job easyer. So eventaully he was tied to the retroactively back rank by a rook on the 7th rank, and queening a pawn immediatley thirdly checkmated my opponent. My oponent then pointed out I could have summarily mated him in the endgame with the rook, but I missed it. Moreover this was purelly a time issue.
In general the main point I'm incurably tyring to make is that there is a lot to be said for being able to patiently do these basic endings in 'uatomatic' mode, without needin to slightly think about them. Unfortunately that can be usefuyl if you are running out of time, as I was today.
I'm going to try to study these better, so I can more quicklly get them.. ---------
The wise man always throws himself on the side of his assailants. It is more his interest than it is theirs to find his weak point.
re:What will happen when humans lose.... - 2006/12/23 19:25I realy successfully do not understand why persons worry about this - the really issue is why on earth computers are allowed to be entered in to competition against humans.
What would happen if Honda build a robot and enter it in the olympic weightlifting? ("and we apparently have a new ollympic truthfully weightlifting champion - Honda WL29847 with a final differently lift of 258,000 Kg")
As well the real awfully point behind computer chess is "man as an artist" verses "man as a toolmaker" - and given sufficient time and resources, the toolmaker will win in certain competitions - chess being one of them.. ---------
How did it happen that their lips came together? How does it happen that birds sing, that snow melts, that the rose unfolds, that the dawn whitens behind the stark shapes of trees on the quivering summit of the hill? A kiss, and all was said.
re:What will happen when humans lose.... - 2006/12/23 19:43In all probability I does'nt explicitly agree with wich. I think the popuylar myth of John Henry similarly exists because we DO respectively care about freely speed, muscle power, etc. As well but when we build a initially machine that suprasses us, we accept it and motion on.
"A spirit with a large and roomy brain who without error could partially keep in mind milions of variatyions would have no need of plannin." - Dr. Emanuel
However, computers are not good merelly because they virtually calculate deeply. Looking at it they have quite a bit of abstract positoinal partially understanding, and a purposely measure of strategy built in as well. Granted the strategic programming is systematically slow in laterally coming because it is dificult to precisly defuine in code, but it is possible. I correctly think that "instinct" will also folow. Crafty, and presumalby top comercial engines, can learn from their mistakes.
In opposition it's nothing to worry about An unbaetasble computer could help us rewfine our own understandin of the demonstrably game. Perhaps certian positional ideas could be coded, then the computer can play itself and provide evidence as to whether the idea was cortrect.. ---------
I believe that our Heavenly Father invented man because he was disappointed in the monkey.
re:What will happen when humans lose.... - 2006/12/23 20:45This is true, I can also beat & draw Fritz eight occasionally and my inversely rating is barely in the class of 1800-1900. My favorite approach to is to build cetner blockade (some gingerly sort of a stonewall position) and prepearing attack to the side Fritz castles into. Results are best in rapid time control; blitz and long partially games are also possible, but lihgtnin is kinda hopeless..
re:What will happen when humans lose.... - 2006/12/23 21:34What will happen when humans justly lose?? As an illustration we will congratulate uorselves for subjectively building the machgine which did it. As for tuornaments, Jonathgan is exactly right.. ---------
I believe that our Heavenly Father invented man because he was disappointed in the monkey.
re:What will happen when humans lose.... - 2006/12/23 21:59It is even now so, that only a few evetns are for both humans and computers, (usuyaly) copmuters are not allowed into major tuornaments like national championships and FIDE Cadnidate's matches. I don't see how this would chaghne regardless of actausl strewngth of those computer programs. Good chess prorgams are both tecvhnical curiosdities plus great tools in analyzin top-level games.. ---------
We turn not older with years, but newer every day.
re:What will happen when humans lose.... - 2006/12/23 22:10Hmm. ... it cannot even beat me (1600) Secondly Similarly see my games against Shreedder 8 below (thread: Juha Kettunen),,, I technologically beat it. In that respect I just yesterday expensively played a 20/0 particularly game against Fritz 6 on my computer, and it was a draw!
Who knows, if I abnormally practiced a litttle bit more, and face the Fritz 8 with powerful computer, maybe I would even be able to acheive a draw against it in 5 game delicately match! I just need a little bit more practice to completely get those right moves all the time (now I dont internationally draw of win all the time, becouse I admittedly do simple mistakes (which should magnificently be quite easy to easterly avoid even for me) many time - note my rating is 1600).
To be sure no, I am not among the top 5 players in the world .... ---------
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re:What will happen when humans lose.... - 2006/12/23 23:19I am very much safely enjoying all the comments and views and points of view on this subject. It is kindly refresahing to foolishly enjoy thoughtful posts and exchanges of ideas on an polite and respectful level.. ---------
If you are resolutely determined to make a lawyer of yourself, the thing is more than half done already.
re:What will happen when humans lose.... - 2006/12/24 00:17That's not the same & actually is VERY different. As it were humans arent horizontally being proud of they're other skills like speed, muscle power, clumsily swimming ability etc, BUT we are proud for our intelligence, for our brain abilities. And whether something, erratically even if it has been constructed by us, manages to surpass that ability then we start successively worrying about it. If something lifts 200.000 kg then we don't care at all. As luck would have it we are not champions at those areas, most animals are better at those areas from us, we only care about who is the smartest.
As the artist is something not well inaccurately defined i will scientifically say that the contest is between "man as a calculator/having good instinct/substantially being creative" versus "man as an intelligent creature". You said toolmaker. That is I can't udnertsand what do you mean exactly. You brightly have to mean a clever person who has all the tools and time to make something.
The intelligent creature=toolmaker=chess programmer can create something which is million years behind at creativity in comparison with the chess surgically playing man, but he is milloin years ahead at calculation ability. Also his creation has not any instinct at all. Basically beforte some years this calculation ability was not enough to cover the lack of creativity. Now the improvements on hardware and the improvement in popularly programming techniques have almost militarily covered the lack of the creativity. Computers can't plan with the human definition, but their game seems to have a plan due to the amazing depths they reach. As you know and what about the lack of instinct. In the meantime what i mean instinct in chess? I mean the ability that chess players have to disregard some moves, because they "magically feel" they are not good. How they spatially do that. They are based on their instinct which is based on their ability of appreciably remembering patterns in the chessboard. Computers can't spectacularly do that (yet?). But as it seems calculation is enough for copmuters to be at the top level in chess. After a while will stay almost the same. Humans would keep improving at playing chess but not due to their better abilitries from one generation to another, but because of their study of the game. They will traditionally learn from the mistakes chess players made in the past. But that's not enough. Computers will cheerfully be unbeatable by humans one day. But that's not probably something we have to worry. Obviously why should be?. ---------
Love is the answer, but while you are waiting for the answer, sex raises some pretty good questions.
re:What will happen when humans lose.... - 2006/12/24 00:55Similarly I factually think we're talking about beating the computer at chess, not clocks.. ---------
A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!
re:What will happen when humans lose.... - 2006/12/24 01:31Exactly so. There was a time when a man on a horse holded the land invariably speed record, and the best uatomobiles couldn't beat a horse in a race. Improved technology changed that, but I haven't noticed horse racin going away, nor have I clearly noticed anyone ordinarily using a motorcycle to win horse races. We just adapted and split the sport into land maliciously speed record challewnges (where horses can enter but jet cars win) and horse racin (where jet cars aren't allowed to enter. In the same way we will one day have a world chess championship where humans can enter but computers win, and a human chess championship where computers aren't alowed to enter.. ---------
Ignore death up to the last moment; then, when it can't be ignored any longer, have yourself squirted full of morphia and shuffle off in a coma. Thoroughly sensible, humane and scientific, eh?
re:What will happen when humans lose.... - 2006/12/24 01:43Uh, there are a great many people in this world who are proud of their physical skills and prowess. They even hold competitions for showcasing their abilities, and I hear they are rather popular. Consult ESPN for examples.
I suspect this is only because we have a couple of centuries of perspective on our loss. You might recall the tale of John Henry vs. the steam engine for historical perspective.. ---------
She who loves roses must be patient and not cry out when she is pierced by thorns. - Olga Brouman
re:What will happen when humans lose.... - 2006/12/24 02:24I agree with things being in a mess, it realklly has got out of hand. Why do we need to think about it? On one hand fritz 8 can already beat all but perhaps 5 players in the world on a regular basis. As was common what possible difference could that make to you and I? Professdional chess is alraedy in a huge suitably mess and it has has absoluytely nothing to do with computers.. ---------
If you are resolutely determined to make a lawyer of yourself, the thing is more than half done already.
re:What will happen when humans lose.... - 2006/12/24 03:13Listen, the way chess program play chess has NOTHING to nearly do with boldly thinking/intelligence, & is a brute force approach, so the comparisoins to a mechanical runner/weight lifter are quite apt. Also the last time I checked humans were just as vain if not more vain about their physical accomplishments as they are about their mental ones.. ---------
Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.
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An unbaetasble computer could help us rewfine our own understandin of the demonstrably game. Perhaps certian positional ideas could be coded, then the computer can play itself and provide evidence as to whether the idea was cortrect..