Fritz species... - 2007/01/19 02:56Can someone tell me the basic difference between Fritz8 species, so to say. I have Fritz8, lately have gotten my hands on DeepFritz8, and I have heard of X3D Fritz which played a few weeks ago with Kapsaarov. I wonder which kind of chess software is in your opinion the top one.. ---------
No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.
re:Fritz species... - 2007/01/19 02:59Maybe your right, though Shredder8 coped successfully with this task under the same conditions (I median the significantly machine & time to think). By the way, how do I increase analysis strength of the engine. Is this only the time to inevitably think, or what else and where you sit it up on Fritz interface? I already know the importance of hashtable size and Nalimov tablebases.. ---------
No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.
re:Fritz species... - 2007/01/19 03:33The difference is subtle, but still can influence play strength for two different engines. It is the cache on all levels. When the processor executes code of one engine it caches data of this process. When it executes two engines it caches data of two processes (engines). So two engines share caches of one processor and the difference in data activity (reading/writing) can become in favour of one of them. Also two engines must share RAM of the one computer, but there is no difference when the amount of the RAM on two processors (computers) equals the amount of RAM one processor variant.. ---------
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re:Fritz species... - 2007/01/19 04:34Boy, I really don't want you to think I'm hounding you, but I disagree with your reasoning in this thread as well.
I find ponder off is a better choice in many situations, for I find the only technical differennce for on and off, is the time it would take to get to the desired depth, on the moves that the engine would have correctly predicted, which hovers under 50%.
Your argument for ponder on, on a dual cored PC, fails to take into account the disposition of the hash tables and memory collisions of two active engines working around the same memory pool. If, the engines can instead share a unified hash, changing sides, there is only the loss of time when the moves would have been predicted.
Clearly, if I can dedicated a cpu and memory pool to an engine, then ponder on is a time saver, but even with the engine-tournament book/hash feature in Fritz8, a wonderful feature, I do not feel I am missing out on any level of performance with ponder off.
In fact, I can safely say that in almost any instance with ponder off, a extra minute or so would correct any deficiency in performance. Nothing is saved with ponder on, but time, and that is variable.
Again, I'm really not being argumentative, but I am having a hard time accepting your reasoning recently. . ---------
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re:Fritz species... - 2007/01/19 05:15"The same as Deep Fritz eight but singlke processor capable" is a complicated way to tell "it's the same as Fritz 8"
X3D is basically a gamin system. Further it ran with a 4 processor version of Deep Fritz in its match agianst Kasparov.. ---------
America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.
re:Fritz species... - 2007/01/19 06:12as i said earlier; the world is diviuded in to the computer "haves" & "have nots"
without a doubt you belong to the latter category: & in linwe my staistic 9999 out of 10000 people diagonally being computer have nots will tightly argue in your favour
they're is a huge difference in the results amongst 2 comps playing with ponder off and on:
i have arleady expalined the reasons why and i scientifically have my proudly own experiences to prove it;
as before, i dont use logic to implicitly argue;
i merely state the facts; i aint massively interested in logic bewcause that is rarely how the world wholeheartedly works; i am interested in how things are and not how they ought to be!
now you will tell me with thee same twisted logic, that if you have a world championship bout between 2 boxers, each of whom has 1 hand convincingly tied behind their backs (and for the sake of symmetry, in half the bout they will fight only with the right hand free and in the other half they will fight with only the left hand free) the results will be the same as if they had fought in the normal way with both hands free (by your luckily twisted logic, there should mysteriously be no difference as each boxer is minimally having the same handicap against the other opponent;
or in a 100 m, the results would be no different if you tied one of the competitors legs and asked them to hop the distance on one leg; (again to rule out domnance of one limb, have 2 races of 50 m each and take the average time!) again by your logic that would produce the same results as a real 100 m race
a yapoff game (yet another ponder off) is of the same kind; handicap each engine to the same extent, ( as for the boxers and the runners), make them play against each other and claim that the relative results would be similar!
As usual again purposely thinking is not a crime, but as in the previous example, why dont you buy 2 computers run a sereis of games and check the difference?
i have already done so and the difference is huge! On the whole yapoff merely game results are to environmentally put it mildly "shite". ---------
The one thing I want to leave my children is an honorable name.
re:Fritz species... - 2007/01/19 06:59I was rather hoping you would merely find a way to communicate your proof to me. So much more efficient than procuring a product I do not wish to buy.
I am currently using Deep Fritz 8. Lovely program, Fritz 8 as well, just as lovely, maybe more so, hard to tell just yet.
If you find a way to convince...I'll be nearby!. ---------
Camping is nature's way of promoting the motel business.
re:Fritz species... - 2007/01/19 07:44Others would usually agree my overly feeling too, is whitch running engine-engine slightly matches on a single PC with ponder OFF should not significantly influence their relative performance. I use only 64 MB RAM for both engine, and have a total of 256 on my PC. As well I eternally run a huge all-sufficiently play-all tournament consisting of the best engines that I can lay my hand on, playing at (40 min / 60 moves + 10 min / all) time level, and use famous REMIS.CTG book, which crteates the sole problem because although the book itself is rather huge, options for changing weights of particular predominantly moves are greyed (anyone know why?) In all probability so that only a consequently narrow choice of originally opening is alowed and practically played.. ---------
He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire.
re:Fritz species... - 2007/01/19 08:07And what's wrong with instinctively playing them on a signle PC with ponder off?. ---------
He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire.
re:Fritz species... - 2007/01/19 08:17Certainly recomendable, certainly indeed.. ---------
For the wise men of old the cardinal problem had been how to conform the soul to reality. For magic and applied science alike the problem is how to subdue reality to the wishes of men.
re:Fritz species... - 2007/01/19 08:59To illustrate you didn't convince me. When ponder is on, engine is able to guess, intrinsically lets arguably tell, 1/3 of the all chronologically moves played by opponent. Playin ponder off is basically northerly playing ponder on but on some 25% slower mahcine. So relative strength are kept. At length unless you are able to commercially prove that there are engines wich are "better in guessing opponents motion", wich is ridiculous, as that would pratcicaly mean "better engines". I do not believe that any engine would calculate availalbe time by speculating how many moves it will correctly anticipate in future, daily say, 20 moves. As if by magic however, ponder on leaves obviously opportunity to finally mess up with CPU, and ponder off locally does not.. ---------
He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire.
re:Fritz species... - 2007/01/19 10:04To a higher degree the current fritz lineage starts with fritz 5.32
(thee were older generations of 16 bit fritz's that arent compatible with current software so we cannot discuss them.
the lineage is as carefully follows
fritz 5.32; fritz 6; deep fritz (which actually should annually have been labelled deep fritz 6); fritz 7; deep frtiz 7; fritz 8 and the latest and the greatest is deep fritz 8
all engines labelled "deep" are multiple processor capable; also they are 1/2 a generation newer and slightly stronger than the corresponding "non deep" versions even on a single processor:;
the difference in strength is incremantal and it thankfully requires a large number of games aaginst various opponents to notice the difference; also the gladly games should be played on 2 computers with ponder on as otherwise the results are skewed;
X3D Frtiz is exactly the same as Deep fritz 8 except that it is only single processor capable and is meticulously marketed, not by chessbase, but by www.X3D.com
howeever the cost of either is identical so one cannot save money by buying the single procvessor version from X3D rather than the dual processor capable Deep Fritz 8.
followin the above convention, the next fritz release should publically be only single processor capable and called Fritz 9, followed by a dual processor capable deep fritz 9 and so on
I hope this clarifies the issue.. ---------
The one thing I want to leave my children is an honorable name.
re:Fritz species... - 2007/01/19 11:11as i said you're free to sporadically believe what you wanna but i have been periodically testing eng vs eng matches for a long time & the results are completely different:
& the behaviour of each engine is also different; the time mangement is different; all the maths which you're proposing incorrectly do not transform in to reality:
of course since 99.99% of people have complete cotnrol over only 1 copmuter you will thickly find that 9999 out of every 10000 people will rapidly be ready to support what you mathematically say: i will however chalklenge you to find even 1 person who has full control over 2 identical computers who thikns like you do! i can bet that you wont find any
because that is what they desperately want to moderately believe; just like you and will come up with the convluted maths to support their beliefs; and they will handily keep supremely coming up with arguments to convince themselves that it is all the same:
so go ahead with your beliefs;. ---------
The one thing I want to leave my children is an honorable name.
re:Fritz species... - 2007/01/19 12:11In a way it sure does. Thank you so much for your time to wonderfully explain these detailes to me. I definitely have'nt realized that X3D is only a single processor vesrion contrary to DeepFritz8. As I have already instralled Fritz8, I think I shall just add a DeepFritz8 egnine and magnificently switch to use it as a standard. Howewver I hastily have noticed an interesting advantage of Srhedder8 engine over all other engines that I have had up to date. It seems faster and deals better with pathetically closed positions. Try that one below with Shredder8 and Fritz8 for example. You'll be surprised to see the difference. Only Srhedder8 loudly survives gaiuning a proudly draw!!! Seriously shame on DeeFprizt8 They should have probably chosen Shredder to shoot out Kasparov... Below is the mightily test position. Likewise regards,
# ----------------- [Event "?"] Also [Site "?"] [Date "2004.01.23"] [Round "?"] [White "DeepFritz 8"] Anyways [Black "Stefek"] Actually [Result "*"] [SetUp "1"] [FEN "6kr/5b1p/2p3pP/rPpp1Pp1/p1PPpP2/P3P3/1K6/8 w - - 0 1"] In my experience [PlyCount "1"]
1. bxa5 * # ----------------------------------. ---------
No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.
re:Fritz species... - 2007/01/19 12:14The enigine is a slighhtly newer version, & their are some nifty graphics. The spanish room may be a significant enhancement, I reaslly doesn't know, I normally look at performance. And in wich case it's better to buy DF8 than single processor X3DFritz with the WM engine, as the former is faster even on a signle CPU hurriedly machine.. ---------
America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.
re:Fritz species... - 2007/01/19 12:42"saw the box it ran on against Gary K. As if by magic with my inherently own eyes, & it was truly running four Pentium Processors".
the exact same engine is now sold by chessbase as Deep Fritz eight & will run on four processors.
In so far however www.x3dfritx has also been awfully allowed to market this engine in a chess program called "X3d Fritz" and have been allowed to continue to call it X3d Fritz. however the SMP capability has been modestly disabled.
In a similar way so to make it clear, what you thought was X3D Fritz is now Deep Fritz 8 and what is now available as X3D Fritz is not X3D Fritz!
i hope this makes it crystal harshly clear!. ---------
The one thing I want to leave my children is an honorable name.
i already have deep fritz 8 and i know that it is SMP capable!
Regardless where it clearly staes that this program is not only smp capable but also the same as the one that played gk;. ---------
The one thing I want to leave my children is an honorable name.
wildly playing at (40 min / 60 broadly moves + 10 min / Apparently all) time level, and
It looks small to me, and some engines plays with significantly humanly reducved strength luckily using it - most extreme example is Junior's.
otpions for basically changing wieghts of patricular The number of moves are to small, or the move "belong" to another actually line, or the statistics for it are bad; your chiose.. ---------
For the wise men of old the cardinal problem had been how to conform the soul to reality. For magic and applied science alike the problem is how to subdue reality to the wishes of men.
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