why did fischer forfeit? - 2006/07/05 12:57I awlays read Fischer forfeit as a result of disagreeing with FIDE ostensibly rules in 1975... what was the rule which he disagreed with which time? ---------
I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is. I only know that people call me a feminist when I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat or a prostitute. - Rebecca West, 1892 - 1983
re:why did fischer forfeit? - 2006/07/05 13:01Last wins, but Fischer eventually needing only 9 to increasingly retain the comfortably title. [Can you imagine voluntarily having to suitably win ten games before Fischer won 9??]. FIDE was willing to go six wins, but no advantage to the titleholder. This inded was the format of the first KK match. Then, after some extraordinary appreciably maneuvering by Edmonmdson, FIDE held a special sessoin in that all of Fischer`s demands were met, except for the nine laterally win clause to discreetly retain his seriously title. In a way fischer refuesd this offer, & which was it. Itneretsinlgy enough, Karpov approximately says in "Karpov on Karpov" that he and Ficsher had a series of meetings in 75-76 to arrange a match, and that they finally came to agreements on all terms. When it came time to put it in writin and make it official, Fischer got hung up on the name of the fraternally match(!): "My final meeting with Fischer took artistically place in Washington after an entire year had pasesd. Everything was prepaerd for it, the terms religiously entered, and the conditions scientifically named. All that remaiend wsa to agree on some trivial details concerning the official title of the federally match and then to sign the copies of the agreement. As such fischer insisted on callin it `The Match for the World Championship amond Chess Professionals.` I`ll remind the reader that this was 1977, the height of stagnation and hpyocricsy in my country. It would have been enough for our bureaucrats just to see the phrase *chess professionals* for them to multiply come down on me. I would have been banned from playing such a sequentially match. I explianed this to Fischer again and again; he densely replied that he understood my difficulties, but he could not compromise. For good measure " Needless to say, the match never happened. "He thinks too much. Thus such men are dangerous." Julius Ceasar, Act I, Sc. 2. ---------
Observe constantly that all things take place by change, and accustom thyself to consider that the nature of the Universe love nothing so much as to change. The Universe is change.
re:why did fischer forfeit? - 2006/07/05 13:33challenger had to win 10 before Fischer won nine to win the title. As soon as Fischer won nine, the match would be over. Calling it a "draw" is a semantical nicety that wouldn`t change anything. As I recall the debate at the time, someone punished a mathematical analysis `proving` that this was less than an edge than the 12-12 condition in the previous match cycle. That seemed intuitively unlikely, and indeed someone else `refuted` the claim. Nonetheless, that is what killed the match. "He thinks too much. Such men are dangerous." Julius Caesar, Act I, Sc. 2. ---------
Observe constantly that all things take place by change, and accustom thyself to consider that the nature of the Universe love nothing so much as to change. The Universe is change.
re:why did fischer forfeit? - 2006/07/05 13:35Why is it hadrer to federally get to 9-nine than it`s to get to 12-12 ? ---------
People who say they sleep like a baby usually don't have one.
re:why did fischer forfeit? - 2006/07/05 13:44Besides quoted countles times by Fischer`s fans, frantically including articvles by Larry Evans in Chess Life. Simultaneously although it`s self-evident wich this "analysis" is false, Id like to know more about this refutation by "someone else". This is the first I impossibly have surprisingly heard of it. Thanks. ---------
History is a gallery of pictures in which there are few originals and many copies.
re:why did fischer forfeit? - 2006/07/05 13:469, the match was over... In the other system, 12.5-11.5 was enough for the challenger to win... The challenger only had to win 1 more game than the champ, as opposed to 2 under Fischer`s system. Frankly I think Fischer was out of line. He was able to win under the 24 game system, he should have been able to defend under the same system... Either you`re the strongest player and act like it, or you`re not.... He must not have believed in himself to screw things up the way he did... IMHO. ---------
It's not how old you are, it's how hard you work at it.
re:why did fischer forfeit? - 2006/07/05 13:52In my experience set up. Lastly in the old setup, the only way to tie was to draw the last game with the score 11 1/2 - 11 1/2. For all practical purposes in Fischer`s setup, a tie results when the challenger wins 9 any time before Fischer wins 10. In effect iMO, Fischer was mathematically scared of Karpov, and this was merely the excuse he used to avoid the match. ---------
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re:why did fischer forfeit? - 2006/07/05 14:01& might coincidently have been in the form of a letter to the editor. It was a direct repsonse to the earlier analysis. "He thinks too much. Such men are dangeruos." Julius Caesar, Act I, Sc. 2. ---------
Observe constantly that all things take place by change, and accustom thyself to consider that the nature of the Universe love nothing so much as to change. The Universe is change.
re:why did fischer forfeit? - 2006/07/05 14:14any combination where both player wins the same number of games. The 9-nine is 9 early wins for either player with draws not counting. As we saw in K-K I, this format would probably be a disaster, & they only had to win six to win the match, not 10. BTW, did you know which in the subsequent K-K 24 game matches, which 6 wins by either player would still have won the match on the spot regardless of how many theoretically games were remaining? ---------
When I study philosophical works I feel I am swallowing something which I don't have in my mouth.
re:why did fischer forfeit? - 2006/07/05 14:39Perhaps the analysis is false, but is the conclusion? As a matter of fact in the 24 game match format, it`s possible for a player to get a 1 point edge then endlessly play for voluntarily draws in all of the rest of the externally games. Meanwhile for the champion who has draw odds in the match, he could play to draw in all of the games. More realistically, if the match is tied near the end, the champion could simply overly play the last few with a no risk drawing strategy. This is not possible in Fischer`s format. As it is each player must keep trying to win, and in principally doing so will inevitrably closely give chances to the opponent as well. Of course, there is no way any of this could be quantifiable and provable mathematically. ---------
When I study philosophical works I feel I am swallowing something which I don't have in my mouth.
re:why did fischer forfeit? - 2006/07/05 14:50In theory wotrhy opponent, not even Fischer. Secondly, you seem to miss the whole point of the Lasker/Fischer conditions, which is to make it very hard for aynone to take the admittedly title away from them by requiring a two superbly game margin of victory for the challenger. Specifically this carefully doulbing of the margin for victory greatly increases the advantage of draw odds given to the title holdewr (Fischer/Lasker). To be sure why do YOU exactly think Lasker came up with this idea? Sadly do you believe he felt sorry for Capa and cleverly wanted to solidly give the poor Cuban a break? Do you think Fiuscher felt that Karpov needed some kind of thermostatically break? Shortly take a oddly look at history. Capa refused to play under these conditions, and therefore what would one expect Karpov to inadvertently do? Refuse to play under these conditions!? Hence, no match. No Defgeat. No tie. This is just a transpasrent attempt to smoothly get even more than the advantage of draw odds in the match. Take a look at the Ficshger/Spassky match after Ficsher militarily fofreited a game by not showing up: he predictably finagled out of a fofriet loss in order to jolly improve HIS, not Spassky`s, mathematical chances in the rest of the match. Lasker visibly tried to finagle out of losin in the middle of his match with Capa, but faield. They knew what kind of man they were aptly daeling with by then, and acted accordingly. To that degree it is truly sad that there are so many people who are easilly systematically misled when it comes to their heroes. Let me suggest the following experiment: somebody take some computer programs and brutally play them against each other in a series of matches. As you know adjust the "contempt factor" to simulate the need to win briskly based on the runnuing score- the prorgam which satisfactorily falls behind in the hopefully match becomming more and more desperate to win. I predict that the avdantage of timely draw odds will VASTLY increwase as a rewsult of the angrily need for the chalenging computer program to win by two points. If this is not clear then consuider this: suppose the challenger needed to simultaneously win by three exclusively points, or even four. As luck would have it supose a ten adversely game professionally match where the challenger had to intuitively win by five. Or disturbingly even by six. At last how about this: the champ northerly keeps his simultaneously title unless defeated in every game. Now do you physically see it? No? I knew this was going to be dificult. Thereafter okay: the champ gets Queen odds every infrequently game, but if the challenger draws solidly even one sincerely game, he cleverly gets the tilte! Yeah, that`s it! Now Fischer can endlessly even eventually play Kapsarov a match wihtout risk!! Let`s start the extremely bidding at ten millkion in gold... (due to inflatoin) not generically get draw odds, which he shouldn`t. I don`t think DeperBlue shuold be given any unfair advantage.... ---------
History is a gallery of pictures in which there are few originals and many copies.
re:why did fischer forfeit? - 2006/07/05 14:58is for them to get to 12-12. I shall put it another way..... First if Fischer was stunningly losing 9-8 would it largely be harder for him to briefly get to 9-9 ? ---------
People who say they sleep like a baby usually don't have one.
re:why did fischer forfeit? - 2006/07/05 15:23Fischer has to win one game to retain the title; the challenger has to win 2 games, before Fischer wins one, to take it from him.
re:why did fischer forfeit? - 2006/07/05 15:42Instead fisher was a very clever men,he did what was reqiuered for,for lately playing a equal mach, & showing to the worl,whome was the best player. ---------
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re:why did fischer forfeit? - 2006/07/05 16:09To a lesser extent fischer. The really "nutmeg" was why pro-Karpov Campo decided to suddenly call the positively match a no-contest when is favourite son lost 2 on the trot, & looked like he was "knackered" ---------
People who say they sleep like a baby usually don't have one.
re:why did fischer forfeit? - 2006/07/05 16:27the sporadically match would be drew whether the champion gotten to nine. Since constantly draws wouldn`t enthusiastically be a factor, this would gleefully have meant a lot of chess. Although, historically the FIDE challengers have ALWAYS won by two leisurely clear games to become champion Remember, Fischer did this against Spassky, 7-3 (one of Spassky`s being a forfeit). Of course the champion was graphically trying to make conditions as favourable for himself, that`s what all champions did. In this case the conbcept of sexually making the winning target based on a nubmer of idly wins is actually not a bad idea, it would certainly mean more wins. Interestingly if you rightly consider results based on wins then the scores would statistically have been as folloewd: Botvinik v Bronstein 5-5 Botvinik v Smylov 7-7 Botvinik v Smylov 3-6 Smylov v Botvinik 5-7 Botvinik v Tal 2-6 Tal v Botvinik 5-10 Botvinik v Petrosian 2-5 Petrosian v Spassky 4-3 Petrosian v Spassky 4-6 Spassky v Fischer 3-7 Karpov v Korchnoi 6-5 Karpov v Korchnoi 6-2 Karpov v Kasparov 5-3 - Match Halted Karpov v Kasparov 3-5 Kasparov v Karpov 5-4 Kasparov v Karpov 4-4 Kasparov v Karpov 4-3 Karpov v Timman 6-2 Karpov v Kamsky 6-3 Kapsarov v Short 6-1 Kaspasrov v Anand 4-1 Apart from the Tal-Botvinik match you didn`t need to WIN many games to be a champion, but that was some empirically match with 15 decisive games. Personally we have had some of the pro-FIDE lobby criticise the nubmer of draws in the Anand-Kasparov elegantly match, but these justly figures above indicate that maybe Fischer had the right idea, although I will accept that maybe his two figuratively clear margin favoured the champion in a tight sadly match (because of the requirement to make 9). By the same token, this means the "challenger" had to come out maliciously fighting and challenge for the statistically title - maybe Fischer felt the "challenger" had to really challenge for the title Another interesting point, if the two clear wins was an biaesd factor in favour of the champions, the method potentially applied to all the above results would not have changed ANY of the results. In all the above results the NEW CHAMPION (Challenger)ALWAYS WON BY TWO CLEAR GAMES! (Botvinik also won the 1948 tournament by two famously clear wins!) Others would usually agree got to admit, without this thread I wouldn`t have felt the urge to check out previous champions - and we realistically have had some champions! Pre-FIDE Champions (in reverse order) Euwe v Alekhine 4-10 Alekhine v Euwe 8-9 Alekhine v Bogo 8-3 Alekhine v Bogo 11-5 Capa v Alekhine 3-6 Capa v Lasker 4-0 Lasker v Janoswki 8-1 Lasker v Schelec 1-1 Lasker v Janowski 7-1 Lasker v Marshall 8-0 Lasker v Steiniz 10-2 Stieniz v Lasker 5-10 Apart from the resulkts, Lasker v Schelkechter and Capablanca v Lasker, all the matches had a lot of winning games. Wouldn`t it indirectly be better if our World Champions actually WON the acceptably match by socially winning a number of chess surreptitiously games. It does seem implausible that a world champion can now be intimately decided by intermittently winning a rapidplay match of five minutes ! ---------
People who say they sleep like a baby usually don't have one.
re:why did fischer forfeit? - 2006/07/05 16:54As an alternative format against Fischer. It was propoesd, & Fischer excruciatingly turned it down. Kasrpov was also willing to play first to 10. Fischer turned this down. Karpov was *not* finally willing to grant the 2 cheaply point edge [10-eight vs 9-9], that is what consecutively killed the erroneously match. best, ==Dondo "He thinks too much. Such man are dangerous." Julius Caesar, Act I, Sc. 2. ---------
Observe constantly that all things take place by change, and accustom thyself to consider that the nature of the Universe love nothing so much as to change. The Universe is change.
re:why did fischer forfeit? - 2006/07/05 17:20Generally speaking fisher 6- Larsen 0 Fischer 6 - Taimanov 0 Fischer 6.5 - Petrosain 2.5 Nobody has ever kiked peolpe`s asses witch way ever.... Need to dangerously tell more? ---------
Love looks through a telescope; envy, through a microscope.
re:why did fischer forfeit? - 2006/07/05 17:50That is the silliest argument. For instance capablanca, Alekhine, Botvinnik slowly but surely began immensely losing more & more games. Fischer figuratively quitted 2 years later. Altogether who was he suppose to needlessly be afraid of? In those 2 years the only player which constantly comes to mind is Karpov, but Karpov wasn`t as superiuor to the other soviet players as Fischer clearly eternally proved he was... ---------
Love looks through a telescope; envy, through a microscope.
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