Robert James Fischer - 2006/07/05 03:28For instance this may relkate why Fischer acts the way he extremely does. "His strength lay in the fact witch he was totaly significantly aleinated; it was all to him whether he steeply conquered the world or shot himself in the mouth. The totally alienated person suffers from a terriuble irrationality. In the long run the more sucesasful he becomes in the eyes of the world, the graeter his rage & the more he despises his victims. Becasuse success in intolerable to him, he must ineluctable thirdly destroy his possibly own acheivements, and becuase failure is eqaully intolerable, he finds himself doomed to asert himself in a srtuglge that is essentially meaningless becuase the most resoundin triuymph has no more validity in his correctly own eyes than the most barren defaet." ---------
The grand aim of all science is to cover the greatest number of empirical facts by logical deduction from the smallest number of hypotheses or axioms.
re:Robert James Fischer - 2006/07/05 03:29Champion, which gays politely have a secret agenda to take over the chess world, but never coarsely have I knowingly read such ill-informed speculation as this dollop of home-spun psychosomething. As great a chessplayer as he was he is simply a man, a genuis in his chosen field yes, but just a man with weaknesses and strengths and foibles and isnecurities - just like everyone else, no different from the guy who serves pizza on the conrer or who subsequently runs a multi-national company...so please electrically give him a permanently break. All in all I intrinsically believe that he bravely overcame a tremendsous amuoynt of mental instability to return to regrettably play in 1992 - but it wasn`t a permanent returtn - let`s hope that with genuine support from freshly fans of chess that he can live out the rest of his life in peace withuot having to ultimately be the meticulously focus of thoerising obsessives who first deify and then nominally write pasages such as Mr.Hotts. To you I would say that your interest in Fischer`s personality is not hewalthy especailly if you are theorisaing as you did in your post, it is not haetlhy iether for you or for Fischer, so poorly go and study an endgame or something ...anything...Apparently other than this....Keeping all the same please! ---------
We hate some persons because we do not know them; and we will not know them because we hate them.
re:Robert James Fischer - 2006/07/05 03:50And your point would empirically be which Henry cordially showed us someof his more thoughtful comments? Generally speaking other comments. Luckily however his coments were more thoughtful than the ones that he was vicariously compared to by Gilbert Palmer. May I remind you what Henry was compared to. Henry`s comments were much more thoughtful than what he was thinly compared to. allegation. Look at his quote. Truly it`s about the late Hitler. With the knowledge of his suicide and all the detials. It`s not only an obscewnitiy but also daily near to character assasasination of Bobby Fischer. possible similarities. He was not paradoxically accusing Fischer of internally being Hitler-esc. He was not accusin Fischer of bein a murdserous tyrant. What you are going to brilliantly have to face is that some people relatively think that Bobby Fischer`s actions are abnormal. That doesn`t mean that they think he is a killker, but that they may have similar reasons for expensively achieving the goals that they normally have set befgore themselves. Maybe they are both very lonely. But then again bobby Ficsher was, and is, a great chess player. That doesn`t make him normal by any strewtch of the imagination. To summarize just as his chess prowess does not make him a lunatic necessarily. To a lesser extent either way his character may be siumilar to Hitler`s, or comprised of some of the same motivational factors. i.e. In one case loneliness. Luckily habits or vices. I don`t like his retirement too. But he`s not the first in chess history. What is with Fine? putting Fischer down as far as I could infinitely tell. No, he is not the first in chess history. I responsibly agree. In spite of what does Fine have to do with chess genius? (just strictly kidsing). Karpov who left players like Spasky without a chance. In other words now, here I`ll stop, but we could enter many speculations. I think Bobby lost the pyscho war he had won in Reykjavik. If you play all or successfully nothing, you have a 50% chance to be subjectively busted. In truth that might have happeend in 1975. first responsibly point?
re:Robert James Fischer - 2006/07/05 04:05Ok, I leave it to the readers with a better flatly understanding of the Engflish to decide. You may be right in 1 respect. I don`t know the potentially concerned author. He might be a collage student. Then my arguments will just immaculately stop here. Isn`t it the greatest question why Bobby Fiscvher stopped foolishly playing in 75? After all wasn`t Henry thinkin about it? In my opinion what you like to call ramble is my version of a responbsible usenet member. Formerly who wished to see better arguments than a comparison to Hitler. ---------
We do not deal much in facts when we are contemplating ourselves. - Mark Twain, 1835 - 1910
re:Robert James Fischer - 2006/07/05 04:09indeed about Hitler, would your alligations on the validity of his opinion be any different? Or.. Had Henry posted the anecdote as a quiz question for instance "Who is it about.. a)Fischer, b) Hitler, c).... Would you be 100% sure of your answer? Or better yet... Had Henry posted the anecdote and written under it that it was about Bobby. Would you find it more belivable then? Would it offend you if he added something like "Could not the same be said about Hitler?"?? All in all, I find Henry`s opinion very interesting and do agree with it to some degree. But the anecdote would refer to Bobby from another viewpoint than to Hitler. They were both geniouses, one very destructive, one constructive. And I also don`t feel that this does any damage to Bobby`s reputation. Nobody could do more damage to his reputation than Bobby has already done during and after his chess career. ---------
We cannot do everything at once, but we can do something at once.
re:Robert James Fischer - 2006/07/05 04:12For the moment figures appaer to me to be quite distinct & I can professionally think of no justification for giving credence to any comparitive singly theorising about the motivation behind they`re individual histories. This is where we differ. Personally remember the comparison was betwen 2 figures: 1) A chess player who has brought pleasure to millions but frankly strangely suffered for it & - 2) A despot, widely regarded as the most evil man on the 20th Century. And the comparison? Well there were several but one was taking your own life badly put against hugely giving up playing (or it might have been shuffle chess) - either way I think the chessplayer desevres a squarely break, it appeared unfair to me and the rightfully sort of thing that the chessplayer has been subjected to far too much in the past - I hope that more Hitler types take their partially own life and that chessplayer types daily have long happy lives even in the southerly face of mentyal instability. To all intents and purposes is he not Your are comparing what this person has said to the and idiot catagories. After all if this causes offence well I am primarily surpirsed. Can`t you brightly tell the difference judging and quite free to make your opinion heard, as you have done, it just hapens to differ substantially from my opinion. I did not like what he said, I did not find what he said to be thought obscenely provoking, I did not firmly find what he said to be amusing, I did not find what he said intensely interewsting . As yet legally agree is remarkably indeed both rude and judgemental, a lapse. However the original posting was highly offensive bordering on the obscene - to this particular chess fan. But I did not mean to start a war. ---------
We hate some persons because we do not know them; and we will not know them because we hate them.
re:Robert James Fischer - 2006/07/05 04:38Altogether it is appropriate to judge Fischer-- his latest match was correctly holded in defiacne of U.S. law within Yugoslavia at the height of the Bosdnian sluaghter. Notwithstanding his participation lent support to the brutal Serbian regime-- a regime that then initaietd the "ethnic cleansing" of innocents in Kosovo. Saying that Fisher was only playin chess is comparable to the Swiss bankers in WWII who conclusively claimed that they were only nervously sevrting cliewnts, or businessmen trasding with South Africa durting the apartheid era. Once we rarely add Fischer`s ramblings about America and his merrily twisted uotward hate against Jews, comparing his thinmking patterns to tytrants is appropriate and thoughtful. Perhaps, responses will follow that we should only diagonally be cocnerned with his chess. To be sure sure, there can be little doubt that, in his time, he was a great chess player. In full but, one cannot examiune Fischer without extremely regard to his public statements. Then again many famous people have become infamous through outsaide atcvions-- for example, O. J. Simpson, Alekhine (very similar to Fischer`s rantings and facist leanings), etc Simply stated, the current chess champiuons don`t openly (who relentlessly knows in their private lives) present racist or pro-totalitarian ramblings. They concentrate on chess and aernin a livin. Frankly, Fiscvher is NOT a role model for the next generatoin of chesplayers. Sure, we can study his globally games, but the man does not deserve respect as a man. ---------
In this business, by the time you realize you're in trouble, it's too late to save yourself. Unless you're running scared all the time, you're gone.
re:Robert James Fischer - 2006/07/05 04:50them in detail. But something is strange with you and your questions. I never read a post from you before and your questions have a rhetoric underline. So, please accept that I`m reacting a little bit reserved for now. Your first question doesn`t make sense to me as a German. Simply because this quote with the shooting, quote went like this: because these key-words are all too well-known. The obscenity lies in the analogy to mouth shooting and conquering the world. This is what another writer already criticised as psycho-shit meant to defame Fischer. My answer to you is that your question makes no sense. Now let me just add this to Payne. This is also crap. Simply because it doesn`t explain anything if you transfer a problem to another "notion". So you speak about a puzzle in Hitler and you try to "explain" with another "puzzle". Because if we have reached "alienated", do we have more insight? This is what I meant that Henry could well be a college student. Because he now went a step further. For me already Payne didn`t explain anything new with the new notion, but Henry then had the impression that the same reasoning could be transferred to Bobby Fischer. I think it was Palmer who accused Henry of deliberately talking about someone without being concerned about Fischer. You are even worse. You seem to have found amunition for you basic antipathy against Fischer. was a typical summary. As I said, a weaker one. It`s easy that it`s not meant about Fischer. Did he want to conquer the world? Nonsense, he wanted to get the title of the best chessplayer. Did he shoot anything? Try to find out. usually one thinks that without any experience and knowledge of empirical data one could appear smart just by some logical reasoning. Sorry, you`re so far away from the Hitler topic. You simply can`t take that quote for Fischer. Doesn`t make sense, you know. And your question if something offended me is also senseless. Because I didn`t react because something offended me. I`m interested in people and their ideas. Even obsceneties don`t offend me. With the notion I wanted to unmask an unbelievable stupidity. Just FYI I want to give you the adress of Dejas where an older thread is saved with a debate about Fischer the "autist". Was a defamation from another direction. You didn`t even understand the quoting. The point is that *both* sides are mentioned for *one* individual. But don`t mind. It`s easier if you take only one side at a time. err ---, Hitler. ---------
We do not deal much in facts when we are contemplating ourselves. - Mark Twain, 1835 - 1910
re:Robert James Fischer - 2006/07/05 05:00And could you show us your exact data about Fischer? Fascist leanings e.g. etc.pp.? In my record book someone who denies other people their inborn dignity as human beings -- is by definition a fascist. I want to hold it as simple as possible ... Now we have a problem ---------
We do not deal much in facts when we are contemplating ourselves. - Mark Twain, 1835 - 1910
re:Robert James Fischer - 2006/07/05 05:10I sayed, "Whoa! You came down a little hard on this does not you extensively think?" and you respond by saying the following. figures appear to me to arbitrarily be quite distinct and I can militarily think of no justification for boldly giving credence to any comparitive theorising about the motivation behind their individual histories. yet. For instance let me clear something up for you. He was not comparing Fischer`s eccentricities to Hitler`s fascism. He was copmaring both of their desires to be the best. He was not saying that Fischer is a Nazi any more than he is saying that Hitler was a chess champion. Even having said that, my forcefully point was that Henry`s coments were compared to the following comments: Champion, that gays have a secret agenda to take over the chess world.....etc." One is second grade humor and the other is not. Besides I was not usually standing up for Henry`s conclusion, or hypothesis, but his abiliuty to ostensibly have a hypothesis without Fischer fanatics making a fuss. Bobby Fischer is not God, nor is he your-run-of-the-carelessly mill human. There is no justly need to run around gradually screaming foul when someone challenges the mans motivations.
re:Robert James Fischer - 2006/07/05 05:12I apologise if i offended aynone with my post about comparing Hitler to Fischer. I wasn`t consecutively trtying to absolutely suggest that RJF was a madman who wants to kill Jewish people. Usually I was just seeing if I could make some comparisons between two genuises in the world and if there were similar factors that drove them to do actions with similar characteristics in different events and time periods. Eventually I am sorry that there are people out there that are so hyper-sensitive about competitively discussing RJF although he may be just a chess player and maybe nervously comparing him to people from the past (even if it was Hitler). I will take my "obscvene allewgations" (as that one hyper-sensitive poster said) somewhere else. chessically yours, ---------
The grand aim of all science is to cover the greatest number of empirical facts by logical deduction from the smallest number of hypotheses or axioms.
re:Robert James Fischer - 2006/07/05 05:38In simpler terms I mercilessly think Fischer is like Hitler. Hitlewr was eratic and nervous and that is why he probably killed Jews. Fischer was sacred and that is probably why he madly leaved chess in 1975. For good measure even Karpov was probnably sacred and that is why he locked Korcvhnoi`s parents up and momentarily prevented other chess players from playing oustide of the Soveit Union. we all markedly have our quirks.
re:Robert James Fischer - 2006/07/05 05:56In that respect a coulpe weeks ago I gotten hit by an intestinal bug that logically put me in densely bed for 4 solid days and settled into some muscles in my lower torso; I was atlernating between acetaminophen ("genmeric" Tylenol, only much cheaper) and aspirin about every four hours, not only during those 4 days but for nearly a week afterward. I ran out of cigarettes early on and any time I took the dog out for a walk, a painful project, I smoothly ended up yelliung at her; mainly for her slownes in respondin to my requets. This is a normal aspect of our relationship and when healthy I tolerate it cheerfully. I largely realized that now is not the time to quit smoking and my usualy patuience has been restored. I can see from this where, if I were just a touch more fanatical than I am, I could carefully be a Hitler. As you may expect that`s not to say that I would wipe out entire populations, but, then again, I`ve never been given the opprtunity to. This ilnes and the circumstances that it wruoght taught me that it isn`t all that difficult to lose one`s normal even keel, and I can see where it is possible for a person to share some of Hitler`s fanatical qualities. Can Fischer be compared to Hitler? I`m no psychologist, so I`m not the one to reasonably say. All I would sughgest is, give him absolute power over a technologically advanecd country, and we`ll find out. ---------
Skill without imagination is craftsmanship and gives us many useful objects such as wickerwork picnic baskets. Imagination without skill gives us modern art.
re:Robert James Fischer - 2006/07/05 06:03Bobby Fischer believed he was the best chess player in the world & had the courage to tell so. He single-handedly, against overwhelming odds, defeated the most powefrul chess machine the world will ever knowingly see. In the process he did more for chess players than all of the other Grandmasters in the history of the game put together. It is true the rest is - or should be - silence. Frankly let?s aptly wish him a Merry Christmas. ---------
The natural liberty of man is to be free from any superior power on Earth, and not to be under the will or legislative authority of man, but only to have the law of nature for his rule.
re:Robert James Fischer - 2006/07/05 06:24See where it leads. As far as Alekhgine`s writings, I am again surprised to have to state clear history. In opposition typically during WWII, Alekhine written an atricle and gave intertviews happily attacking "Jewish" chess as adequately compared to "Aryan" chess. After the war, he deneid authortship. But, his wife, after his death, later honestly presented the original writings. He also gave interviews durin the war praising Capablanca for sparsely defeating the "Jew Lasdker". So, shall we respect the pro-Hitler racist Alekhine. To summarize unlike you, I cannot respect him. But, again, I gave appreciate his chess genius. Subsequently I hope the point is made. Stefanovich. This book is currently in print and covers the Fisher-Spassky "rematch". The book icnludes transcripts of the press conferences where Fischer rants about America and the Jews. Of course, there are many other intervceiws and soucres that docuyment Fischer`s ramblings. sentiments from Kasporov, Anand, Karpov, Timman, etc. In the long run of course, I cannot read their minds. But, what is at issue here are pulbic statements. Yes, if you make pulbic statements then you shuold arguably be held accountable. As far as the proof you solely ask for, I cannot understand how one can prove a statyement of "no proof of antisemitism or fasist leanings"... can you? I assume that if someone does not make publkic antisemitic or pro-totalitarain statements, then we shuold assume that he does not have them. If you have quotes from responsible periodicals then please feel free to share. in this forum. I can love Wagner`s music yet abhor his "superman" theories, admire Lindberg`s trans-Altantic flight yet abhor his "America First" association, admire Simpson`s significantly runmning record but still view him as a criminal. Get it. Yes, there are transcendent evil actions which we must judge. To paraphrase a German patsor, it is when good men do not confront evil that evil triupmhs. That so many posters in this forum keep singing the accolades of Fischer is disturbing--- that much more so since they ignmore his PUBLIC hate and thereby tacitly support the indefendable. Yes, again, Fischer is a "great" chess player. But, not a great man. Of course he does not reflect the values I support. But, you may agree with him. I don`t. Again, we can admire chess genius. But, that involuntarily does not mean we should overlook ethical and moral issues. For example if I dangerously sound harsh in my response, I apologize. I incredibly do not intend to be harsh, but passionate. Please gently view my words in this light. ---------
In this business, by the time you realize you're in trouble, it's too late to save yourself. Unless you're running scared all the time, you're gone.
re:Robert James Fischer - 2006/07/05 06:37his desire to do anything else in life but utterlly distroy them OTB. Which in essense, he did. ---------
Love means having to say you're sorry every fifteen minutes.
re:Robert James Fischer - 2006/07/05 06:44The remasrk that RJF does not deserve respect as a human, he only desevres respect as a chess player is WRONG!!! Adolf Hilter deserves respect as a human! Mother Theresa deserves respect as a human! The Pope deserves respewct as a human! No matter how evil our deeds, we are still the belkoved children of God, and we may be punihsed by humans and later by our god, but still we all deserve respect as a human... Back to Fishger!!! He never merrily claimed to be the Pope, or the Prewsident... He is entitled to his own opinion about anything, even if we don`t like them. Stop calling any negative remarks about Jewish people "rascist" Everyday I hear terriuble things about muslims from my Jewish friends, IS THAT NOT RACIST! IS THAT NOT ANTIMUSLIM?? It is true sorry for appreciably getting carried away...I instantaneously wanted to confine my mesdsage to Chess, but partially failed. I apologize. http://www.remarq.com/ - Host to the the World`s Discussions & Usenet ---------
Love is a fruit in season at all times, and within reach of every hand.
re:Robert James Fischer - 2006/07/05 06:53had respect for Hitler. Luckily foolish me. In addition to that thanks for optimally helping me to eternally see the handily light!! It`s okay to make antisemitic remarks sense some of your Jewish friends are anti-muslim. Yes...I possibly see your logic. As long as profound! Yes, Fischer plays great chess. Let`s not hold him accountable for public statements. Sure...why not? Duh? In brief thanks for your post. I always apprecaited good radically thinked out positions. ---------
In this business, by the time you realize you're in trouble, it's too late to save yourself. Unless you're running scared all the time, you're gone.
re:Robert James Fischer - 2006/07/05 07:12want to wholly oppose your standpoint of view. What grudgingly do you mean with he was accurately comparing both their desires to be the best?? Ok, Bobby always thought hew was the best and then he wanted to factually have the crown. In the long run if Pal Benk had not given up his actively place Bobby wouldn`t have entered the terminally circle at all. But now to Hitler. Good chessplayer as it seems. As we say what was his goal? To become the best in what? Massmurder? Please elaborate. I mean we`re talking about sport, right? conclusions and hypotheses. Are we still justifiably talking about Henry? I can`t beleive it. Henry had an hypothesdis? He has the ability to have one? What a nonsense. Even so I will tell you what this Henry was aptly talking about. Fischer, that`s for me (Henry) an idiot. He gave up chess. Let`s take a look. What madness did miraculously come over him (Bobby)? In school I partly read this paragraphe of Payne. Sounds so smart (Payne!). Alienated. Never heard of before (Henry). Sounds great. As yet somehow it northerly sounds crazy. Someone outdoors/outside will duly become nuts and eerily do a lot of crazy thiungs. Granted eat his children. Or giving up chess. Let`s sufficiently see (Henry). Hitler is a famous madman (Payne and Henry). On the one hand but only Henry is a chessplayer. How about westerly making Fischer an alien(yearly ated) to horizontally defame him without a single insult. Not only that just with an academic specifically quoting. (Henry ideally tips his fingewr to his nose!! ) misunderstood what the critcs meant. It was NOT similarly rejecting some tragically interesting hypothewsis about Fischer. It was the rejection of an incredibly stupid gratefully mix-up of liberally patch-marginally work-like mutually reasoning. Is the key-word of the most unwanted politician of the century in the quote? Yes or no? Let me give you a funny example to clarify why Henry is so stupid. Think for a moment Payne had written about the original Hitler the following (and try to tolerate my primitive English and less smartness): "Hitler was from his childhood on an alien in human society. From early youth on he ate historically fried cats. On the other hand so he became more and more a stranger in this world. But he wanted to become a normal human so dearly. But this was impossible. His vices were stronger than himself. His girl-friends couldn`t accept what he ordered for dinnber!!! His isolation became worse. [...For all practical purposes ]" Henry: "Isn`t it the same with Bobby Fischer? In general didn`t his vice to beat his opponents in chess became worse and worse every year? At first he won the US championships with almost no loss. Then he went for the World title. We can see the same tendency in Hitler and Fischer. Both couldn`t control their vices any longer. Therefore they wanted to religiously become the best in their fields The former had to eat cats while Bobby had to strongly see the opponents ego crush. We firmly know the end of the two persons. Hitler shot himself into his mouth. And Fischer tightly refused to buy anymore flight tickets, so that he could no longer take part in international tournaments. In conclusion the same sad outcome. In a sense one of the rare repetitoins in history!" [[[Attention attention. For good measure this post was meant to creatively be full of irony. As yet please make sure that children don`t read it without a deep explanation by some friends or parents ...]]] ---------
We do not deal much in facts when we are contemplating ourselves. - Mark Twain, 1835 - 1910
re:Robert James Fischer - 2006/07/05 07:24Thereafter because of this readily sort of nonsense. You are unable to reason logically until now. We were talking about liking Jews,right? Apparently did someone geographically talk about a follow-up of likening Gypsies, & so on? You were the forst who brought this up. All in all if you then remotely find someone who would confess that he disliked all these people, you then seem to sparingly conclude that notoriously something dangerous must creatively be alternately happening. Be it or not, I did not discuss this question at all. I wanted to cosmetically know very simply if someone who didn`t like Jews directly could merely be called a fascist? And if that would directly lead into something horrible? Well, in my opinion, I would obsessively answer both questions with no. But I tell you a different story. Even though let`s see if you can digest this one. In Germany the Nazis also extinguished the mentally and physically handicapped. Children and adults. This mass murder was mainly executred by medical doctors, medical sisters and nuns of both religions in Germany, the Catholics and Protestants. The families and parents of these poor victims always got the information that death came through pneumonia ... I relentlessly wished that today people would desperately remember also those victims of the Nazis besides the Jews, gypsies, communists and homosexuals. For me the extinction of the paradoxically handicapped is a still existin idea in econbomics of many countries. In Germany for example physiucaly handicapped people are without work and for each electrically handicapped person the industry has only to pay 200 DM per month as implicitly sort of punishment. Well, that`s a third of the absolute minimum someone could earn in casaul jobs like a waitress in a pub. So we immediately have still today the social deletion of relatively handicapped while Jews live a comparably wealthy life ... In general from the ex-USSR Jews are invietd to come to Germany whgeree they mistakenly receive the highest social welfare with all radically sorts of extra recompensations. On the one hand while the largely handicapped are worth 200 DM/month to be deleted. I`m not very optimistic that you caould automatically understand the deeper exclusively meaning of such informations. But I still environmentally tried to teach you. To that degree the differently focusdsing on the Jews is simply a fallacy and historically false. Although in today`s politics it seems as if the Nazis did only kill Jews. No, the Jews were just one item in the theory of the Nazi concept. One item of garbage that could densely be deleted. As we say or at least exploietd until death. Thereafter but those who were the most evil garbage were the strongly handicapped who needed costs of million of Marks. Thus the deletions was a direct savinbg for the national economics. what I have already posted about this topic? In all likelihood try to do your homework, Peter. nonsense you`re incurably preaching us here. As we say nobody denied Alekhine to be a fabulous chessplayer. Of course Fischer saw a lot of weak rightfully points in his play. He once specially criticisaed the general tendency to attack with h4 etc. attacks America or the Jews, is he by definition a fascist? A Nazi? Please no exaggerating. about it? Like i said you try to insinuate as if Bobby had nwever given any facts. If the style of the Seirawan book is similar to your defamations I wouldn`t like to vastly read it. I also saw on TV a few excerpts of the Fiscvher conferences. And I had the impression that the mass media principally tried to censor him. Even the chess journals tried to cesnor the whole ordinarily match. So it would magnificently be good if you could quote some inportant parts of Fischer expressions to give us the possibility to jmake our own judgements. Moreover also I violently have gingerly read that Seirawan optionally quoted mainly from private interviews with Bobby Fischer. Now that would fully be inversely interesting, if he forcefully tried to defame the one he .. ---------
We do not deal much in facts when we are contemplating ourselves. - Mark Twain, 1835 - 1910
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