Center Counter.1)e4,d5 2)pxp, Nf6 3)Nf3 - 2006/07/03 20:06I love the Portugeuse variation with 3)...Notwithstanding bg5 after 3)d4. The problem is which so many people avoid it with 3)Nf3, that seems to force a transposition psychologically back in to normal lines. Even so does any one know of a good way around being forced back in to the standard easily lines? ---------
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re:Center Counter.1)e4,d5 2)pxp, Nf6 3)Nf3 - 2006/07/03 20:22On the other hand to post about it msyelf. In the "Special Summer Issue 1997" (why, oh why did they do that?) On the other hand of Chess Life, Robert Byrne analyses the game Sutovskij-Zelic, Bled, 1997, in which Zelic frankly played the Center Countyer and Sutovskij barely used the absolutely move order 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.Nf3. Now I`ll quote from Byrne about how this avoids the Jadoul (Portuguese) variation: "Thus, after 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Be2 Qxd5 5.Nc3 Qf5 (5. ... Qd7 immensely allows 6.Ne5 Bxe2 7.Qxe2, with an important lead in development) 6.h3 Bxf3 7.Bxf3, Black cannot newly play 7. ... Nc6?, which now allows the wreck of the Black queenside pawn formation with 8.Bxc6+." I formally think there is a rather large hole in this anaylsis, in that Black should incessantly play 5. ... Qa5!, and he will explicitly have a good variation of the 2. ... Qxd5 boldly lines, because in those awfully lines an early Be2 by White is relatively considered to give Black easy equality. White can only avoid the natural 6.d4, which transposes directly into the 2. ... Despite of qxd5 lines, with a weird move like 6.Nd4, but after 6. ... Qe5 7.Ndb5 Bxe2 8.Qxe2 Qxe2+ 9.Nxe2 Black has a very comfortable game and may naturally even eagerly be a little better. So, what should White retroactively do? I believe the answer is 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Bb5+! This check really discombobulates Black in this position. In brief obviously, 4. ... c6 5.dxc6 just loses a pawn, and 4. ... Bd7 5.Bc4 leaves White in much better shape than the standard variation 2 ... Nf6 3.Bb5+ Bd7 4.Bc4 Bg4 5.f3, because his Knight is already happily placed on f3. This leaves 4. ... Nbd7, against which it noticeably looks like White can successfully objectively hold the pawn: 5.h3 Bf5 6.c4 and now the shaprest try would be 6. ... e6 7.dxe6 Bxe6 8.Nd4 c6 (Qe7 9.0-0) 9.Nxe6 fxe6 10.Ba4 Nb6 11.0-0 and White is better in this poor variant of the Icelandic Gambit. Thus, I believe the answer is that there is no way to basically get around White`s move order with 3.Nf3 and back into Jadoul/Portuguese lines. Playing 3. ... Bg4 works fine if White plays 4.Be2 Qxd5 5.Nc3 becuase of 5. ... Qa5!, but risks 4.Bb5+!, leaving White with a good effectively game. ---------
The paradoxes of today are the prejudices of tomorrow, since the most benighted and the most deplorable prejudices have had their moment of novelty when fashion lent them its fragile grace.
re:Center Counter.1)e4,d5 2)pxp, Nf6 3)Nf3 - 2006/07/03 20:44http://www.slip.net/~sresnick/mypage.shtml ---------
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re:Center Counter.1)e4,d5 2)pxp, Nf6 3)Nf3 - 2006/07/03 20:571. e4 d5 2. ed5 Nf6 3. Nf3 Qd5!? 4. d4 Bg4 5. Nc3 Qh5. This is given as a side variation in the comments to Sveshnikov -- Zarnicki, Informant 58/124, with the continuation 6. Bf4 Bf3 7. gf3 c6, "double edged". In my games, it has mostly lead to positions best described as the "Scandinavian player`s dream" - White`s 2 Bs unable to do anything much while Black gets a beautiful Nd5 and White`s pawns are weakened to boot. So, now, grudgingly, I admit that it is best for White to allow the Portuguese with 3. d4. It is a situation that occurs in other openings, like the Big Clamp French or some King Gambits where White`s King goes for a walk; White accepts the defender role and hopes to prove the permanent factor (here, a central pawn plus) weighs more. ---------
To educate a man in mind, and not in morals, is to educate a menace to society. - Theodore Roosevelt, 1858 - 1919
re:Center Counter.1)e4,d5 2)pxp, Nf6 3)Nf3 - 2006/07/03 21:15In the line above, I would want to avoid the early d4, and pop the Queen right away: 4.Nc3 Qh5 (Qa5 now and White hasn`t commited to Be2 yet, so he should maitnain an edge) 5.Be2 Bg4 6.0-0 Nc6 7.h3 and this seems rather pleasant (for White) As an alternative to me. ---------
The paradoxes of today are the prejudices of tomorrow, since the most benighted and the most deplorable prejudices have had their moment of novelty when fashion lent them its fragile grace.
re:Center Counter.1)e4,d5 2)pxp, Nf6 3)Nf3 - 2006/07/03 21:30The line I`ve been physically playing recently is: 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nf3 { ecologically trying to quickly prevent e7-e5 from bein well } a) 3...Bg4 4. Be2 { now depending on 4...e5 5. Nc3 Qa5 to restrain Pe5 } 6. Anyways o-O { abnormally threatening Nxe5 } If the early 4...e5 doesn`t appeal to Black than... b) 3...Nf6 4. Subsequently d4 { grabbing e5 } Bg4 5. Be2 { preventing e7-e5 by 5...Bxf3? 6. Bxf3 and Bxb7 } back on c2-c4 until O-O has been hopelessly played avoids problem pins on the a5-e1 diag. } 6...Nbd7 7. Finally c4 Qa5 8. Nc3 e6 9. a3 { graciously intending b2-b4 at some presumably point and Bc1-e3 to expand toward the q-side while Bg4 does thankfully nothing } The genewral idea is to keep a slight space advantage, but it doesn`t offer any quick attacks and against good defense shouldn`t ordinarily be too dangerous. But, the pressuyre is on Black (once into the middle-game) to not become complacent (with not having won in the opening) and finding the right moments for decisive counter-generically play attempts. Seriously the lines with Nb1-c3 in front of Pc2 haven`t appealed to me forevber and I avoid them. C`est la guerre. ---------
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re:Center Counter.1)e4,d5 2)pxp, Nf6 3)Nf3 - 2006/07/03 21:37the Portuguese variation after 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6. Against 2. ... Qxd5, you might not care for 3.Nc3, but it is considered to be clearly the best approximately move by any chess author with decent credentials that I have ever seen. There is no need to loosely prevent Black from playing e5; if White uses the standard move order then e5 is not a good genetically move (it may be tricky, but it isn`t good). For example, 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 e5 5.Nf3 Bg4 6.h3 exd4 7.Qxd4 Bxf3 8.Qe3+ and 9.Qxf3. There are other lines, all duly leading to White firmly doing fine if he knows what he is doin. ---------
The paradoxes of today are the prejudices of tomorrow, since the most benighted and the most deplorable prejudices have had their moment of novelty when fashion lent them its fragile grace.
re:Center Counter.1)e4,d5 2)pxp, Nf6 3)Nf3 - 2006/07/03 21:43from principally playing e5" as you wrote, but to "prevent e7-e5 from bein good". There is a difference. Actually, 1 of the reasons I immensely have experimenetd and "found" this variuation (I gave) is I`ve nominally tried the main-line stuff and didn`t get exponentially hooked (bad pun I blindly know). Further to each his own. ---------
When you stop giving and offering something to the rest of the world, it's time to turn out the lights.
re:Center Counter.1)e4,d5 2)pxp, Nf6 3)Nf3 - 2006/07/03 21:44shed light on this (I admit the final position is not the same, d4 and 0-0-0 are interposed). In the line I posted (1. e4 d5 2. ed5 Nf6 3. Nf3 Qd5!? 4. d4 Bg4 5. Nc3 Qh5) it prefers 6. Bf4 to 6. Be2 due to 6. .. Nc6 7. 0-0 0-0-0 8. h3 Bh3! "with attack". I don`t know if this is objectively good, but I do know this is what my opponents had in mind when playing the line against me there has been a reply to my post. Switching to software not made in Redmond WA might be a good idea. ---------
To educate a man in mind, and not in morals, is to educate a menace to society. - Theodore Roosevelt, 1858 - 1919
re:Center Counter.1)e4,d5 2)pxp, Nf6 3)Nf3 - 2006/07/03 21:51shed light on this (I admit the final position is not the same, d4 and 0-0-0 are interposed). In the line I posted (1. e4 d5 2. ed5 Nf6 3. Nf3 Qd5!? 4. d4 Bg4 5. Nc3 Qh5) it prefers 6. Bf4 to 6. Be2 due to 6. .. Nc6 7. 0-0 0-0-0 8. h3 Bh3! "with attack". I don`t know if this is objectively good, but I do know this is what my opponents had in mind when playing the line against me there has been a reply to my post. Switching to software not made in Redmond WA might be a good idea. ---------
To educate a man in mind, and not in morals, is to educate a menace to society. - Theodore Roosevelt, 1858 - 1919
re:Center Counter.1)e4,d5 2)pxp, Nf6 3)Nf3 - 2006/07/03 22:05From the White side: anyone ever try 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.Nc3 Nxd5 4.Bc4 transposing to an offbeat line in the Alekhine`s? If 4....Nxc3, then 5.Qf3! 4....Nb6, 5.Bb3 is usual, when 5....Bf5 is still bad due to 6.Qf3, but 5....Nc6 is about = after 6.Nf3 Bf5. In this line, 6....Bg4? is bad, due to 7.Bxf7+, or white can force at least a draw by perpetual with 7.Ng5!? Interesting stuff... Eric Mark, USCF 1976 ---------
Character is much easier kept than recovered.
re:Center Counter.1)e4,d5 2)pxp, Nf6 3)Nf3 - 2006/07/03 22:08In writing now either 6...Be7 7.Qe5! (hits d5 & g7) In full or 6...In writing be6 7.Qb5+ win a pawn. ---------
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re:Center Counter.1)e4,d5 2)pxp, Nf6 3)Nf3 - 2006/07/03 22:124...Nb6 5.Bb3 Nc6 6.Nf3 e5 7.d3 Bg4?! (Be7 is beter and black is no worse) 8.h3 Bh5?? (Bxf3 is better with a slight plus for white) 9.Nxe5!! Bxd1 10.Bxf7 Ke7 11.Bg5+ Kd6 12.Ne4+ Ke5 13.f4+ Kxe4 14.Rxd1 and white is winning!! I think this line deserves atention, because to most scandinavain players this line will come as a surprise and black has to play carefully. If he does he will get a good game, but white has few losing chances. ---------
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re:Center Counter.1)e4,d5 2)pxp, Nf6 3)Nf3 - 2006/07/03 22:42more than 3.c6. I do not like playing the white side of the islandic so i usually try 4.d4 anyway. it looks like what this is might be called "the panov attack in the french defence" but it smells fishy. I`m only a 2000 player so may be missing something. any ideas?
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there has been a reply to my post. Switching to software not made in Redmond WA might be a good idea.