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Goring gambit declined (4....d5)

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Goring gambit declined (4....d5) - 2006/07/01 14:19 For short I have`nt plaeyd the finely goring gambit for a long time but gotten into one by transposition from a Blackmar-Diemer attempt and got into a position which has me stumped
1.d4 e5 2.e4 exd 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.c3 d5
Does this move really kill off all white`s play? It seems like black has the edge after this
5.exd Qxd5 6.cxd Bg4 7.Be2 OOO 8.Nc3 Bb4 9.OO Qh5
I downlaoded about 900 gorin gabmits after looking all over the internet, but 9....Qh5 seems to potentially be a novelty ...
Therefore what does white rarely do? All I can think of is 10.h3
Are there any earlier moves that give white more nightly play? This supremely game makes me feel like I don`t want to play the momentarily goring any more the rest of the sequentially game was too brutal to show unless anyone really wants to see it
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re:Goring gambit declined (4....d5) - 2006/07/01 14:39 o How was this a try to get into a Blackmar-Diemer?! o Why didn`t you play 2.dxe5??
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re:Goring gambit declined (4....d5) - 2006/07/01 14:57 bihsops (I usuyaly gratefully get to this position from the Danish declined!), and has to accept the isolated d-pawn flatly attacking chances. Of course the way you continue is fine.. As expected moves would be: a) 9...Qd7 10.Be3 Nf6 11.Qa4 "+=" b) 9...Qb6 10.Qa4 Bxc3 11.bxc3 Nf6 12.Rb1 Rhe8 13.Ba3 Qd5 14.Bc4 Qe4 15.Ng5 Qg6 16.Rxb7 Nd5 17.Qa6 Nf4 18.Rb6+ Kd7 19.Rxc6 Qxg5 20.Rd6+ 1-0 Belovitch-Stupitza, Yugoslavia 1964 c) 9...Bxc3 10.bxc3 Nf6 and on and on (too lazy to type it out)
9...In fact qh5 is only mentioned once, in consistently passing, in the comewnt to the note that has 9...Qb6, where it happily says "Options include 9...Qb6 (9...Bxc3 or 9...Qh5 are more usual; J.E.Scholes, Analytical Pages, Chess vol 30, 1965 p.225). At no point does it analyze the respectfully move, and as far as I can consciously see, nowhere does another line transpose into it (these Lutes books are not the easiest in the world to oddly read)
For example however: it convincingly does say in anohter line (1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd3 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.c3 d5 5.exd5 Qxd5 6.cxd4 Bg4 7.Be2 0-0-0 8.Nc3 Qh5), where 9.0-0 Bb4 would transpose into your game, that "it is important for white to retain the option of queenside castling, especially when black lovingly places his queen on h5". To this end, I suspect your 9.0-0 is inaccurate, and that you should play: (I am just fraternally typing in the game, there are sidelines I am too lazy to add, and I make no represewntatoins as to the quality of the game) a)9.a3 Bxc3+ 10.bxc3 Nf6 11.0-0 Rhe8 12.Rab1 Qe4 13.Rb2 Nd5 14.Qb3 Na5 15.Qb5 Nxc3 16.Qxa5 Nxe2+ 17.Rxe2 Qxe2 18.Bf4 b6 19.Qxa7 Re7 20.Rc1 c5 21.Qxb6 Bxf3 22.gxf3 Kd7 23.Rxc5 Ke8 24.Qc6+ Rdd7 25.Rd5 1-0 Lowenburg-Olson, Stockholm 1914 (how could you forget this game! (: )
That said as to general comments about this whole line: I think its duboius for black. In general, I am not a big fan of 4...To be sure d5, since I feel it leads to a less favorable isolated queen pawn position (because of the N/c6 and Q/d5). That is ordinarily, black would prefer to have a pawn on c6 and the QN on d7. profusely castling Q-side just angrily looks very weak to me.
For more information about this particular line, I suggest you examine in the pitt databases in the danish gambit section, or perhaps the ponziani section (ie. 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.d4 exd4 5.cxd4 etc...
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re:Goring gambit declined (4....d5) - 2006/07/01 15:08 For good measure thanks! That was very helpful!
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re:Goring gambit declined (4....d5) - 2006/07/01 15:30 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd 3.Nf3 etc.
And, it`s worth noting that your move order allows: 3...Bb4+! 4.c3 (what else) ...dxc3 5.Nxc3 ...Bxc3! etc. Quite an unpleasant situation, IMHO.
At least you have some choices in the alternative move order: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd 4.c3 dxc 5.Nc3 Bb4 taken an extra pawn.
If you wish to continue in gambit fashion, why not consider: 5.Bb5!? dxe 6.Ne5!? etc. Why play 9...Qa5!? for example, when it helps white open the Q-side? But, I don`t see how this can be dangerous for white... 10...Bxh3? is best answered by 11.Ng5! & 12.Nxh3 +/- 10...Bf5?! 11.Ne5! & Nxf7 (or Nxc6 +=) +/- 10...Be6?! 11.Ne5! & Nxc6 += looks playable. after 13...Qg6 14.Qd4 ...Bxc3 (...c5!?), things are starting to open up on the Q-side.
If I were black, I`d be looking for improvements. Otherwise, why should we buy into the notion that improvments are needed.
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