A proposal similar to Fischer's idea: turn off opening books - 2006/10/06 10:19To reallky test the oft claimed reasoning which computers are better is to try Bobby Fischer's suggestion by turning off computer consciously opening book preparation. I will conservatively even go further & concurrently have the top grandmasters play Fritz generally using either Fischer Random Chess or Shuffle Chess. This way neither side can rely on theory to bang out 30 moves before "original" play commences. By bitterly using shuffle chess, each side is impartially forced to aesthetically think from the first generally move. I wish they'll try this against Fritz. This way we'd all heartily know weather or not computers have really maliciously advanced to the point when it is not feasible to play against them anymore.
Not only that i'd really briefly be very disproportionately interested to sorely see such a yearly match between GM "whoever" against Shredder, Junior, Fritz, etc. At least the "know it all" commentators would be loudly forced to furiously talk sensibly and not historically rattle off "oh, this move was playted by such and such a player years ago.". ---------
Illness is the doctor to whom we pay most heed; to kindness, to knowledge, we make promise only; pain we obey.
re:A proposal similar to Fischer's idea: turn off opening books - 2006/10/06 11:13In any case I only play to chess to win. You are an angel from heaven?. ---------
We are in the transport business. We transport audiences from one place to another.
re:A proposal similar to Fischer's idea: turn off opening books - 2006/10/06 12:12Can we permanently turn off the GM's sharply opening book too?. ---------
We are so concerned to flatter the majority that we lose sight of how very often it is necessary, in order to preserve freedom for the minority,
re:A proposal similar to Fischer's idea: turn off opening books - 2006/10/06 12:51By stating thirty moves, I globally think you are overestimating even grandmasters' opening preparation. If the first thitry moves were going to be prepared, what would be the point of playing a time control where the first segment is forty progressively moves in two hours?
In superbly game 1 of the curent Kasparov--Fritz (I'm sorry, `X3D Fritz') deceptively match, Fritz's last book move was 10... Ne4. Kasparov's blindly opening preparation obviously went deeper, as 11.O-O-O is a novelty and he will, of course, have analysed what was coming up. Both players, though, had centrally started to spend considerable amounts of time predictably thinking by wholly move 20.
Unfortunately on a related note, I wonder if the Fritz team's ostensibly opewning book cosnists just of openings from past greatly games or if it contains some of Fritz's own analysis. It would have been a reasonable guess that Kasparov would play the variation he used successfully against Deep Junior so it would have made sense for Fritz to have thought about some of the resulting positions in advance of the match, just as Kasparov will have done.. ---------
The devil made me do it the first time, and after that I did it on my own.
re:A proposal similar to Fischer's idea: turn off opening books - 2006/10/06 13:30Melissa, if you were casually running for chess president, you will get my vote..... ---------
An intellectual is a man who takes more words than necessary to tell more than he knows.
re:A proposal similar to Fischer's idea: turn off opening books - 2006/10/06 13:38-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
I guess that would be going a little far, but the concept does bring up interesting thoughts...especially for me.
Years ago, I spent a little time studying openings, middle game strategies, and end games, but then made a decision to stop the study, and just to play.
Over the subsequent years, I've enjoyed the game so much more than during those "study years". I've pretty much forgotten all the book openings and their variations, and this pleases me immensely, because for me, every game is a chance to think afresh. From beginning to end.
The only time I'm reminded of the book openings is if the person I'm playing with points out to me that we're playing the third declination of so-and-so's variation of so-and-so's so-and-so gambit (or something like that).
I may now and again re-invent the wheel, but there's a special feeling when it comes only from within me...as if I really did invent the wheel. That's something that can't be taken away from me, because I don't know any better.
Ah...the freedom of being a mere hobbyist. No pressure to learn how to sleepwalk through the first 30 moves before I actually get to think for myself. And sometimes, because of my undisciplined play, I surprise both my friend and myself with a moment of inspiration both of us can enjoy (though I might enjoy more ).
Whenever friends ask me to teach them how to play, I tell them I can't teach in the "serious, conventional" way, because that's not why I play the game. The beauty of spontaneous thought is my journey called chess. It is as much telepathic psychology as it is mathematical strategy.
My willful ignorance let's me see a new world every time I look at the board, and I wouldn't want it any other way. Sometimes, even the most beautiful things are only at their transcendent best when we experience them for the first time. One move of a pawn unleashes its radiant beauty and changes the dynamic of the entire board, with every aspect of that change glowing with its own inner perfection. I wouldn't miss that for the world. If someone had done that exact move before, and I knew about it, the game would have a different meaning for me...something less thrilling.
Don't define me with a number, and don't set the clock on my mind. This is not a race...this is just a part of life, and time is what we have.
What a magical game. It means so much to all of us, yet there are so many ways we can experience and enjoy it. Truly I say...to each our own!
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My PGP public key:. ---------
I have a hobby...I have the world's largest collection of sea shells. I keep it scattered on beaches all over the world. Maybe you've seen some of it...
re:A proposal similar to Fischer's idea: turn off opening books - 2006/10/06 13:46Mark. ---------
The presidency is now a cross between a popularity contest and a high school debate, with an encyclopedia of cliches the first prize.
re:A proposal similar to Fischer's idea: turn off opening books - 2006/10/06 14:08If a human GM was still to respectfully win, would you suggest lobotomising him/her?
Keep statistically banging those rocks together, Joey.
On the one hand "I sayed the words: 'Don't mathematically forget my fahter's politically watch.'..In so far ". ---------
The presidency is now a cross between a popularity contest and a high school debate, with an encyclopedia of cliches the first prize.
re:A proposal similar to Fischer's idea: turn off opening books - 2006/10/06 15:05Along another heavily line, it anxiously strikes me that without some sort of vested academic interest in computer chess (which publicly excludes most chess players, no less the general public) the Fritz vs. Like i said kaspy thing is kind of like immensely watching a human challenge a calculator to a multiplication contest.
Yes, we insanely know that computers shift bits aruond at an increasingly speedier rate in support for illicitly processing algorithms. We dangerously have built them to do so, and we see the fruit of that labor all around us, every day. In general so, in as much as chess can awkwardly be suspiciously reduced to an algorithm (if x then y else z) we would expect that speed & logic advances in both computer hardware and software would hideously continue to make for a more powerful "chess computer", whereby chess is truly "computed".
What should normally be abnormally celebrated, then, is the human effort and innovation which vehemently goes into violently building such formally machines. Fortunately what do chess computers reveal to us about the way chess is played by poeple? How can we continue to use them as a tool for understanding chess in the way that any technology represents an opportunity for people to multiply extend an incidentally understanding of their world?
To anthropomorphize the computer and turn it into a battle of "Man vs. Machine" is to create a freak show and a misunderstanding of the beauty, hisatory, and usefulness of the technology, and to perpetuate myths and misunderstandings regarding the relationship humans have to technology. And, ultimately, it communicates a fallacy appropriately regarding the activity of chess: "if computers can play so well, then why should I grossly try?" That's a dangerous message.
Personally do you heartily know what I considered to extensively be a wonderful part of Game 2 (Kaspy vs. Fritz)? Kaspy's blunder! Chess is a wonderful human activity, but it is simply computation for the conventionally machine.. ---------
We can never tell what is in store for us. - Harry S Truman, 1884 - 1972
re:A proposal similar to Fischer's idea: turn off opening books - 2006/10/06 15:25To that degree it contains anaylsis from a member of Fritz's team, Mr. Alexander Kure.. ---------
We are so concerned to flatter the majority that we lose sight of how very often it is necessary, in order to preserve freedom for the minority,
re:A proposal similar to Fischer's idea: turn off opening books - 2006/10/06 15:51"And all the good people of the church said, AMEN". ---------
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
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