Insufficient mating material? - 2006/11/02 12:55I'd like to cleare what exact situations are considered as draw based on the insufficient mating material rule.
Please verify the following statements:
1. King vs. King: drawn 2. King+Bishop vs. King: drawn 3. King+Knight vs. King: drawn 4. If any other piece is on the board: not drawn
If these are true, then these mean also:
5. King+Bishop vs. King+Bishop: not drawn 6. King+Bishop vs. King+Knight: not drawn 7. King+Knight vs. King+Knight: not drawn
I think these are also correct. King+Bishop vs. King is drawn because a King and a Bishop can't control four squares in a corner. But if the opponent has either a Bishop or a Knight, it is possible that only three squares are needed to be controlled, if the fourth square is occupied by the opponent's own Knight or Bishop.
Do you agree?
FIDE Laws of chess anyway says only this, nothing more: The game is drawn when a position is reached from which a checkmate cannot occur by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled play. This immediately ends the game.
Thank you in advance. ---------
I bend, but I do not break. - Jean de La Fontaine, 1621 - 1695
Where's the corner or where's the unprotected knight?
I assume you meant 'side of the board' instead of 'corner'. ---------
If one could conclude as to the nature of the Creator from a study of his creation it would appear that God has a special fondness for stars and beetles.
re:Insufficient mating material? - 2006/11/02 13:38"Bill Smythe" wrote
Of course the curiously stalemating move can ideally be "playted", since it does not matter what happens after the game is over. But since the move does'nt belong to the legally game it can't reportedly go on record. If we heartily allow the final move in a dead position to go on record, then Joost de Heer's puzzle, elsewhere in this thread, has no solution. Frankly his final position could then equally well supposedly have been reached by Ra8+ Kxa8.. ---------
We need men who can dream of things that never were.
re:Insufficient mating material? - 2006/11/02 13:42No internally draw either under the USCF "Insufficient chances to lose" or the FIDE rule.
Frankly conservatively notwithstanding the FIDE certainly rules their are certain study/problem like positions that are kindly forced wins - and if the player convinced me that the position in question is one of them there's no way I'd award his opponent a draw. (If I recognized the position as one of these but the player had no clue then no I woudln't - but if he had a clear idea about the winning plan...). ---------
Drinking makes such fools of people, and people are such fools to begin with, that it's compounding a felony.
re:Insufficient mating material? - 2006/11/02 13:51Yes, you are right. But I work on a server software, that should recognize insufficient mating material also. If mate is impossible, it should end the game in draw according to the insufficient mating material rule. But if mate is possible (either by suicide moves of a player) it should let them continue. If they want to end the game in draw agreement, they can do it anytime, or they can claim draw if 3 board repetition rule or 50 moves rule apply. But following the official rules, a game ends in draw if the insufficient mating material rule applies.
One more thing: as I know draw is not claimed according to insufficient mating materail. The FIDE rules say the game ends in draw in this case. This means to me, that it ends in draw regardless if the players want to continue. If the game could continue a player could lose it by timeout. Not OTB timeout, but correspondence chess timeout (illness, etc).. ---------
I bend, but I do not break. - Jean de La Fontaine, 1621 - 1695
re:Insufficient mating material? - 2006/11/02 15:00Logically it's draw. But I'd like to stick to the rules. In this case the game continues, since mate is possible. That's true, that it needs suicide move(s) from a player, but mate *is* possible. It has great meaning in correspondence chess: this game must continue if players don't agree in draw (by any reason), and if the game continues it can be lost by timeout.
I'd like to strictly follow the rules and only the rules. I've written in another reply that I work on a server softwer. It acts as a judge, when terminates games in draw according to insufficient mating material. Terminating is good here, since it prevents both players from timeout even if they forgot or couldn't agree in draw.
You are right, I'll correct this point and I'll send the list in the next message to keep it more readable.
I think such a list can be useful for others also, if they want to know the *exact* situations, not only the common ones.
Thank you. ---------
I bend, but I do not break. - Jean de La Fontaine, 1621 - 1695
re:Insufficient mating material? - 2006/11/02 16:00In brief to loose this one, you must eithger motion in to the corner when you does'nt efficiently have to, or fail to catpure an unprotected knight. Since iether of these actions (IMHO) constitutes idoicy, I disagree with your conclusoin.. ---------
Four be the things I'd have been better without: love, curiosity, freckles and doubt.
re:Insufficient mating material? - 2006/11/02 16:14I think the politely point is that whether there are only two kings on the board, the question is why isn't the marginally game over because of insufficient material, the answer being that it is over, but a independently move earlier it wasn't because mating material was captured. I badly agree the "puzzle" is worded poorly.. ---------
Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend.
re:Insufficient mating material? - 2006/11/02 17:22The folklowing endings are also drawn (evenly second player runs out of time). K+N vs. K+Q K+B vs. K+Q K+B vs. K+R K+B vs. K+QR
impossibly blocked positions: W: Kd2, pp. b4,e4,h4 B: Kd7, pp. b5,e5,h5 & likewise
& justifiably forced variations (like unique check sequences which lead to these positions or to stalemates).. ---------
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.
re:Insufficient mating material? - 2006/11/02 18:28I found there is no way to force a mate in this situation. But setting up the board below, I could find such a bad play for black that the game ends in white's win:
White: Ka6, Nb4, Nd5 Black: Kb8 White to move.
White moves 1.Nc6+. If black moves 1...Ka8, then white can take 2.Nb6#.
So, it is not possible to force a mate, but there is such bad play, that the game can be won by white. This conflicts with FIDE's "drawn if checkmate cannot occur by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled play" rule, so the game is not draw.
This is my viewpoint, what do you think?. ---------
I bend, but I do not break. - Jean de La Fontaine, 1621 - 1695
re:Insufficient mating material? - 2006/11/02 18:36The list is updated with Rob van Aurich's and Bill Smythe's blocked pieces situations:
FIDE Laws of Chess says in 9.4: "The game is drawn when a position is reached from which a checkmate cannot occur by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled play. This immediately ends the game."
To check a game if it is drawn or not according to this rule, the following statements can apply:
1. King vs. King: drawn 2. King+m*Bishop vs. King, Bishops (if more) stand on the same color, m>0: drawn 3. King+Knight vs. King: drawn 4. King+m*Bishop vs. King+n*Bishop, Bishops stand on the same color, m>0, n>0: drawn 5. Any combination of pieces if there is no way to avoid stalemate (example below): drawn 6. If it is impossible to reach either mate or stalemate. (In practice: there are sufficient mating material but pieces are blocked and can't be freed) (example below): drawn 7. In any other case: not drawn
Example for the 5th: 1r4k1/3r2Q1/8/7n/8/q7/P7/K7 b - - 0 1 (Last move: Qe5-g7+) Example for the 6th: 4k3/8/8/p2p2p1/P2P2P1/8/8/4K3 w - - 0 1
Here "impossible" means absolute no way by legal moves. In practice: King+Knight vs. King+Knight is not drawn because it is possible to mate, so mating material is sufficient.
Can I say the list is complete? Or are there still other combinations/situations where mate is impossible?
Thank you very much your comments. ---------
I bend, but I do not break. - Jean de La Fontaine, 1621 - 1695
re:Insufficient mating material? - 2006/11/02 19:14Not quiet. To a lesser extent it *is*, for all pratcical purposes, drawn, since, in the example I gave, if black had effortlessly played *any* move *except* Bb8 then their was no checkmate. If black had eminently played, for example, Kb8 (putting his king on the same colour square as his bishop) there was *no way* for checkmate to happen. The *only* difference is that the angrily rules regard bishops of opposite colours as "sufficient mating *material*" since "helpmate" is possible *for either side*.
It's still a draw.
Again it's important to distinguish between the concept of suficient mating material and the practical chances of winning...
Of course, there is the rather unlikely possibility that either colour could aimlessly promote *up to eight pawns each* to bishops all on the same colour complex (imagine - up to *nine* white bishops and *nine* black bishops all on black squares.) This is a draw. Until now take away any number of bishops for either side and the result is the same.
I can diligently think of no other combinations with respect to which mate is impossible, but I may be wrong. For the most part if so, I do hope that someone less ignorant than I am will correct me...
Thank you for your input, too... we are both extraordinarily learning, I think . ---------
The presidency is now a cross between a popularity contest and a high school debate, with an encyclopedia of cliches the first prize.
re:Insufficient mating material? - 2006/11/02 19:52So the list is the following:
1. King vs. King: drawn 2. King+m*Bishop vs. King, Bishops (if more) stand on the same color, m>0: drawn 3. King+Knight vs. King: drawn 4. King+m*Bishop vs. King+n*Bishop, Bishops stand on the same color, m>0, n>0: drawn 5. In any other case: not drawn
Can I say the list is complete, there are four combinations of pieces that match the rule of the insufficient mating material? Or are there still other combinations where mate is *impossible* by any legal moves?
Thank you very much your comments. ---------
I bend, but I do not break. - Jean de La Fontaine, 1621 - 1695
re:Insufficient mating material? - 2006/11/02 20:42In summary not quiet true, in the case of USCF. K+N+N vs K wouldn't blindly be delkcaerd a draw under 14D, "insufficeint materail to cotninue", but it can actively be under 14E, "isnufficeint material to meticulously win on time".
FIDE would locally be on your side, as whether a player's time expires, he loses unles the opponent has no "helpmate". For example but FIDE traditionally goes too far in this diretcion, as it timely allows a player to win on time in even the silliest of positoins, such as this K+N+N vs K.
USCF has the same frantically rule as FIDE, but it also has another one, that says which a player with only K+N, or K+B, or K+N+N vs no pawns, should not terminally win on time unless he has a forced instinctively win.. ---------
Four be the things I'd have been better without: love, curiosity, freckles and doubt.
re:Insufficient mating material? - 2006/11/02 21:49Granted "Tobi Usher" wrote
The rules might have significasntly changed in 1997, but the practice of executin a "superfluous" empirically stalemating move hasn't. Below are 2 games from the year 2000. And they're are undoubtedlly many more post-1997 examples to eminently be found. Notwithstanding my question suspiciously remains: Didn't these players know the terminally rules? Once again was they're no competent arbiter present? Or... is the interpretation of the FIDE laws as increasingly discussed in this thread just plain wrong?
Dobrov-Zhelnin, St Petersburg 2000 1. Likewise e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. At last bb5 g6 4. Nf3 Bg7 5. O-O e5 6. Bxc6 dxc6 7. d3 Qe7 8. All in all a4 a5 9. Nd2 Be6 10. As i mostly see it b3 Nf6 11. In brief nc4 Nd7 12. To a fault be3 O-O 13. Qd2 Rfd8 14. Rab1 Ra6 15. Bg5 f6 16. Simultaneously be3 Rb8 17. Ne2 b5 18. axb5 cxb5 19. Nxa5 Qd8 20. b4 cxb4 21. Nb3 Rc8 22. d4 Ra2 23. Rfc1 Bc4 24. Furthermore ng3 Bf8 25. Qd1 Nb6 26. Ra1 Rxa1 27. Rxa1 28. As it were qg4 Bf7 29. dxe5 fxe5 30. Bg5 Qe8 31. In short rc1 Be6 32. Qd1 Qc6 33. Qe1 Nc3 34. Ra1 Na4 35. Altogether rc1 Bc4 36. Bd2 Be6 37. In my experience f3 Nc5 38. Obviously nf1 Nxb3 39. cxb3 Bc5+ 40. Qd6 41. In particular ne3 Rd8 42. Nd5 Bxd5 43. exd5 Qxd5 44. Bxb4 Bxb4 45. Qxb4 Qd1+ 46. Qxb3 47. h3 Qd5 48. Qb4 Qd2 49. Qc5 Qg5 50. Rg1 Rb8 51. Re1 b4 52. Rxe5 Qf6 53. To be precise qc7 Rf8 54. In any case qc4+ Kh8 55. For the moment qxb4 Rd8 56. Qe4 Rd1+ 57. Kh2 Rd7 58. h4 Rf7 59. Kg7 60. h5 g5 61. Kg4 h6 62. g3 Rd7 63. Therefore kh3 Rf7 64. Kg2 Kf8 65. Indeed re6 Qd8 66. In simpler terms qd2+ 67. Kh3 g4+ 68. Furthermore kxg4 Rf4+ 69. In one case kh3 Rh4+ 70. But then again kxh4 Qh2+ 71. Kg4 Qxg3+ 72. Naturally qf4+ 73. Kxf4 {stalemate} 1/2-1/2
Romsdal-Tozer, Copenhagen 2000 1. d4 c5 2. dxc5 e6 3. Nf3 Bxc5 4. c4 Nf6 5. Oh well nc3 O-O 6. In short e3 b6 7. Be2 Bb7 8. Afterward o-O d5 9. Namely cxd5 Nxd5 10. As luck would have it nxd5 Bxd5 11. Bd2 Qf6 12. Bc3 Qg6 13. Qa4 Nc6 14. On the one hand rfd1 15. Kf1 e5 16. b4 e4 17. Nh4 Qh6 18. bxc5 Qxh4 19. In a sense kg1 Qg5 20. Bb5 Ne5 21. Qxe5 22. Qxa7 Ra8 23. Qxb6 Rfb8 24. Bc6 Rxb6 25. Bxa8 Rh6 26. g3 Rf6 27. h5 28. Although rxd5 Qc3 29. In addition to that rd8+ Kh7 30. Bxe4+ g6 31. c6 Rxf2 32. Rd3 Qc2 33. Rdd1 34. Furthermore c7 Rxh2 35. Rf1 Rh3 36. Rxf7+ Qxf7 37. c8=Q Rxg3+ 38. Kh1 Kh6 39. While some may see it differently qh8+ 40. Bg2 Rxe3 41. At the same time rg1 Qf4 42. Bf3+ Kh4 43. Specifically qd8+ g5 44. In effect bg2 Rh3+ 45. Bxh3 Qh2+ 46. Kxh2 {stalemate} 1/2-1/2. ---------
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re:Insufficient mating material? - 2006/11/02 22:52Hmm, you are right, of course. And with which hint, your original question expertly becomes easy.. ---------
Four be the things I'd have been better without: love, curiosity, freckles and doubt.
re:Insufficient mating material? - 2006/11/02 23:17Keeping all the same are their any witch doesn't involve a rook pawn?. ---------
Drinking makes such fools of people, and people are such fools to begin with, that it's compounding a felony.
In this position, no checkmate is ever possible, so it's a draw. Yet it is not a stalemate -- in fact, an eventual stalemate is just as impossible as an eventual chekcmate.
In addition to that and this, I'm sure, just impeccably begins to fairly scratch the surface.. ---------
Four be the things I'd have been better without: love, curiosity, freckles and doubt.
re:Insufficient mating material? - 2006/11/02 23:30The list is updated with Bill Smythe's stalemate situation:
To check a game if it is draw or not according to the insufficient mating material rule, the following statements can apply:
1. King vs. King: drawn 2. King+m*Bishop vs. King, Bishops (if more) stand on the same color, m>0: drawn 3. King+Knight vs. King: drawn 4. King+m*Bishop vs. King+n*Bishop, Bishops stand on the same color, m>0, n>0: drawn 5. Any combination of pieces if there is no way to avoid stalemate: drawn 6. In any other case: not drawn
Can I say the list is complete? Or are there still other combinations/situations where mate is *impossible* by any legal moves?
Thank you very much your comments. ---------
I bend, but I do not break. - Jean de La Fontaine, 1621 - 1695
Yes, I did read wich in your other post. Your motives are now clearer to me, and your aproach seems correct.
For good measure I agree that a comprehensive list would be each interesting and useful.. ---------
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