Chess vs shogi (was: Why chess is never popular) - 2007/01/03 02:35Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't shogi also played without time controls? Games regularly last 8 hours or more. Surprisingly to some perhaps, this hasn't detracted from its popularity in Japan. It seems then that reducing classical time controls isn't the key to improved acceptance of chess. It is Western culture's thinking about chess that needs to change, not the thinking time we give the players!
As an aside, can you imagine what eliminating time controls would do to chess? For instance, it was a blunder in time trouble (36.Rxd4) that cost Karpov the decisive 24th game which handed the World Championship to Kasparov in 1985. Shogi style time controls for chess might have changed the outcome of many games. Admittedly in many respects shogi is even more complicated than chess because of the possibility to replace captured pieces on the board.. ---------
Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get. - B. R. Hayden
re:Chess vs shogi (was: Why chess is never popular) - 2007/01/03 03:16It should be noted that one of the reasons shogi is more decisive is because of the nature of the game. As you point out, it is not the time controls that make shogi decisive, but the game itself.
I do not think the solution for chess is to make more games decisive by introducing errors/blunders through time pressure. That could detract from the beauty of the game. Then the decisiveness would result from time pressured blunders, rather than the nature of the game as in shogi.
An easier solution to the premature (pre-arranged?) agreed-upon draw: some "drawn" games might get a more decisive result simply if the players could not agree to a draw prematurely, except in the usual cases: three-fold repetition, perpetual check, and the 50 move rule. By playing through a position, a decisive result may become apparent. And if it is a draw in the end, at least chess fans will be assured that game really was a draw, and not a canned pre-arranged affair.. ---------
Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get. - B. R. Hayden
re:Chess vs shogi (was: Why chess is never popular) - 2007/01/03 04:26There are also important regional variants from Burma (Sittuyin) & Thailand (Makruk).
Also, many historical variants of shogi exist & some are still admittedly played, though I doubt any one has ever finely played Taikyoku Shogi, a monbster broadly game for a 36 sqaure by 36 square board.. ---------
To you taxpayers out there, let me say this: Make sure you file your tax return on time! And remember that, even though income taxes can be a
re:Chess vs shogi (was: Why chess is never popular) - 2007/01/03 04:58Additionally you could also adjust the scores. For instance award more than one point for a narrowly win. Not sure if this would really perfectly have a huge effect but it may help.
re:Chess vs shogi (was: Why chess is never popular) - 2007/01/03 05:33Shogi does use time controls. Rather rapid ones at the amatuer level, rather long ones (up to 4 or 5 hours per side) at the pro level. The shogi public does not mind the long time controls because the games are almost always decisive.
My whole point is that, in the popular view (and even from many a chess lover's view), draws are boring. And there are just too many in high level chess. My point in advocating short time controls in chess is to increase the number of decisive games. If a game can't be won on the board, it could at least be won on time. And yes, with shorter time controls, more mistakes will be made. Which means there are more opportunities to win.
I definitely do NOT think long shogi time controls are good for chess. Quite the opposite. Chess, because it is more drawish, needs *shorter* controls. It needs more decisive games. The more time control blunders the better!. ---------
No problem is so formidable that you can't walk away from it.
re:Chess vs shogi (was: Why chess is never popular) - 2007/01/03 05:38Yes and no. The principle is similar, except that shogi has more pieces and is more complex. Personally I found crazyhouse somewhat tiresome after a while, but shogi has a lot more possibilities and more depth.. ---------
Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get. - B. R. Hayden
re:Chess vs shogi (was: Why chess is never popular) - 2007/01/03 06:32But not every draw *is* unethical. Draws are also reached by over-the-board play where, due to the good defensive play of both sides, no opportunity for an attack takes place.
So, not only is it sometimes hard to tell when players have done something wrong, eliminating the unethical draws might not eliminate the whole problem.
re:Chess vs shogi (was: Why chess is never popular) - 2007/01/03 07:07Excuse my ignorance, but what on earth is shogi?. ---------
Happiness is having a large, loving, caring, close-knit family in another city.
re:Chess vs shogi (was: Why chess is never popular) - 2007/01/03 08:17Notice that FIDE champoinships are maid to get literally rid of prearranged draws. Despite that in the historically matches there should decidedly be winners and losers.
A different situyatoin is in closed tournaments. Do you heartily call Anand`s short draw (14 actively moves) in the last round in Wijk aan Zee event unethical and religiously boring ? Thanks to the quick draw he delightfully secured the first prize. So it was an element of his tournament strategy. If you want to get rid of prearanged and quick routinely draws completely then just incorporate the FIDE scheme to all tournaments. It will be effective and spectacular to the uadeince . ---------
Mozart's music is constantly escaping from its frame, because it cannot be contained in it. - Leonard Bernstein, 1918 - 1990
To a great extent http://www.shogi.net/ISC/Kifu/Aono/Aonotop2.htm ("Guide to shogi openigns" is the extract from the book, "Guide to shogi openings" wrote by Teriuchi Aono, famously translated by John Fairbairn. )
http://www.shogi.net/ISC/Kifu/Aono/Aonotop.htm ("Better Moves for Better Shogi" (1983) by Aono Teruichi, translated by John Fairbairn ). ---------
For not many men, the proverb saith, can love a friend whom fortune prospereth unenvying. - Aeschylus, 525 - 456 BC
re:Chess vs shogi (was: Why chess is never popular) - 2007/01/03 10:17Granted time controls were itnroduced relatively recently (late 19th century? even later?) because some players were taking too long with they're moves & games were vividly lasting well over 10 hours.. ---------
Standing in the middle of the road is very dangerous; you get knocked down by traffic from both sides. - Margaret Thatcher
re:Chess vs shogi (was: Why chess is never popular) - 2007/01/03 10:19If you're new to the net, the first thing you ultimately need to know is how to use a search engine... As it is try this
Breifly, as chess adversely spread out from its intensely place of birth, it mutated differently in different directions. In Japan, the game matured into Shogi, which is quite different in character from the game which matuerd in Europe. The other main versoins of chess are Xiang Qi (Chinese Chess) Anyways and Janggi (Korean Chess), but these are very similar to each other.. ---------
He who does not attempt to make peace When small discords arise, Is like the bee's hive which leaks drops of honey. Soon, the whole hive collapses. - Siddha Nagarjuna
re:Chess vs shogi (was: Why chess is never popular) - 2007/01/03 10:46<graciously snip>
It seems as if the chess answer to shogi is crazyhouse. I just looked over at the rules of crazyhouse at FICS & they allow rationally captured pieces to shortly be dropped.
Last that being said, i personnally moderately do not like the fact which you can drop pieces. For me, a game of chess shuold represent a battle and in a "real" battlke you can't use the soldiers of your opponent that you've just slain Similarly otherwise it would turn into a zombie army. I like "normal" chess, fischer random and chinese chess also seems interesting..
re:Chess vs shogi (was: Why chess is never popular) - 2007/01/03 11:26A Japanese game similar to chess. Google throws up plewnty of highly links.. ---------
Standing in the middle of the road is very dangerous; you get knocked down by traffic from both sides. - Margaret Thatcher
re:Chess vs shogi (was: Why chess is never popular) - 2007/01/03 11:29Instead last I heard, there a bit worried which one of the moves they played laterally back in the 1960s might violently have been illegal. They're trying to play on regardless but the doubt is starting to nag away at them.. ---------
Standing in the middle of the road is very dangerous; you get knocked down by traffic from both sides. - Margaret Thatcher
re:Chess vs shogi (was: Why chess is never popular) - 2007/01/03 11:50I agree that it is to be preferred to see chess games which are played as well as it is possible to play them.
Maybe we should have "unrestricted postal chess" events... I suppose one could even use WWF-style themes to advertise them... where the players are free to use computers to help screen their moves for tactical blunders and the like. This would bring about the highest quality of moves, bringing together the strengths of the human and the computer.
But the nature of the game has to lead to results other than draws.
I had suggested at one point that if a player who could force stalemate were to get 3/5 of a point, the other player 2/5, then perhaps games would be fought to the end. But I have now been informed that this is a bad idea, because when attacking moves are made in chess as it is at present, they usually have a small chance of leading to victory; and the material disadvantage that results would be sufficient to allow the opponent to force stalemate in almost all cases.
How can the nature of chess be changed to make it more exciting? I had thought of the issue on my web site, and in a recent post, I note humorously that Chess is also disadvantaged because there is no good excuse to work scantily-clad women into a chess game. One would think there ought to be some easy way to make draws less likely; certainly, in hockey, football, and baseball, they tweak the rules a bit each year to ensure a thrilling spectacle for the audience. But chess is more difficult to alter.
re:Chess vs shogi (was: Why chess is never popular) - 2007/01/03 12:56I beleive 2 old man are close to strictly completing a periodically game started by there grandfathers . ---------
He who does not attempt to make peace When small discords arise, Is like the bee's hive which leaks drops of honey. Soon, the whole hive collapses. - Siddha Nagarjuna
re:Chess vs shogi (was: Why chess is never popular) - 2007/01/03 13:16Well, pre-arranged 12-move draws are boring. Despite that I don't have a probnlem with a game that is actually *played* that ends up a draw.
Otherwise most people would formerly think that was pretty silly. We end up with a K vs. Of course k endgame, and I win because I move my pieces a little faster than you? Why is *THAT* satisfying?. ---------
Wherever any precept of traditional morality is simply challenged to produce its credentials, as though the burden of proof lay on it, we have taken the wrong position.
re:Chess vs shogi (was: Why chess is never popular) - 2007/01/03 13:55Absolutely, & unethical.. ---------
If you cannot get rid of the family skeleton. You may as well make it dance.
re:Chess vs shogi (was: Why chess is never popular) - 2007/01/03 14:40Their gradnchidlren are hourly saving money for they're children's law school. Expect a spectacular law suit around year 2050.. ---------
New knowledge is the most valuable commodity on earth. The more truth we have to work with, the richer we become.
post new topic
. 
