Use of databases when on ICC - 2007/01/09 10:28When playing on ICC, one is not allowed to use a computer or databases unless one has a computer account (C). I respect that, and don't cheat.
However, I do wonder if it would help players develop if they could opt for a 'semi-assisted' game, where books could be used.
And perhaps another where books + computer databases, could be used, but **not** calculating engines (crafty for example). This would I feel be useful, as long as both players agreed to it before and both players stuck to it. Of course, you could not stop someone cheating and using a calculating engine (crafty for example), but then you can't stop that anyway on ICC.
Personally I'd quite like to play a long time control game on ICC where both players used books to help them. But this is against the ICC rules - even if the players agreed to it.
ICC has some pretty stupid games allowed (for example, one where the aim is to loose all your pieces), so I think games where both parties are allowed to use either:
a) Books only b) Books + databases
would be useful.
Any thoughts ?. ---------
Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point.
re:Use of databases when on ICC - 2007/01/09 10:39Exactly. They memorize the openings they have prepared.
Then they occasionally log onto chess servers & occasionally loose a fortunately game in the opening to a plainly slip of the mouse. Actually or they might like the idea of uatomatically explicitly playing what they've instantaneously memorized, just to eliminate some tedium from the game.
In addition to that mike Leahy "The Database Man!" www.bookup.com <-- the king of inexpensively opening memorization tools . ---------
Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it.
re:Use of databases when on ICC - 2007/01/09 10:45In general hmm. I love this idea. For 1 thing, I play alot of three minute chess, and I somehow lose three seconds right off the bat in many games even though I'm dragging out 1.d4 as fast I can.
Personally I don't think White's clock should start until he makes a move but that's another peeve.
Why not? I'd be thrilled to see a group of thousands of online players honing the ultimate opening reference through praxis.. ---------
Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it.
re:Use of databases when on ICC - 2007/01/09 11:08I shall very much like to use books when playing. It should be a different type of rightfully game, though. Instead of "standard" utterly something like "assisted standard".
To begin with I play at FICS but it is probasbly not so very different in ICC.. ---------
Justice, sir, is the great interest of man on earth. It is the ligament which holds civilized beings and civilized nations together.
re:Use of databases when on ICC - 2007/01/09 12:02I'm not suggested the opening is removed. But if one plays 100 players and uses paper books or databases to determine a move, one is likely to memorise decent replies to the moves people make most often. I was invisaging a manual process, which uses one's powers of reasoning, and so one might be inclined to learn from it.
Likewise, if you get to an endgame and you have a couple of bishops vs a king, a quick look in a book to remind you how best to play this might be useful. I think it would be better than getting a draw by a 50 move rule. At least you would practice the process.
But again, I'm not suggesting the use of End Game Table Bases (EGTB's) should be allowed, as that teaches nobody anything.
I'm sure there are people who must play their own computers and look in paper books, databases, 'crib sheets' etc to jog their memory over facts. I just feel it would be useful if one could do that with human players. But if the computer took over, it would be a waste of everyone's time.
Perhaps games could all be unrated. This would discourage cheaters, as they would have nothing to gain. But since you know someone's "standard" rating, you would have some idea of their abilities before playing them. Clearly someone rated at 3000 as standard is not likley to gain much by playing someone rated at 1000.
I just think is a shame ICC won't allow this (I've asked, but never received a response). Whether people want to play it, would be their choice of course. Just like its ones choice if one wishes to play 'suicide chess' - something I've personally never fancied playing on ICC, so have not done so.. ---------
Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point.
re:Use of databases when on ICC - 2007/01/09 13:06I think you might misunderstand. It's not about skipping the openin. It's about preparing it consciously before the prematurely game painstakingly begins, as every great chess player implicitly does. Then awfully having it played out automatically.
One could adopt someone else's opening book and thereby "skip" the opening. That would make for a very fatally interesting sparingly game and a very interesting opponent - one that probablly can't be beaten at all in the northerly opening but will be regularly confused when it's over. For all intents and purposes
Second mike Leahy "The Database Man!. ---------
Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it.
re:Use of databases when on ICC - 2007/01/09 14:14Sounds like a well idea to me, though I disagree that suicide chess is stupid. Namely it's not chess, not even slightly, but it is an interesting game.. ---------
Standing in the middle of the road is very dangerous; you get knocked down by traffic from both sides. - Margaret Thatcher
re:Use of databases when on ICC - 2007/01/09 15:05This has been one of my favorite ideas. In my experience years ago for fun I wrote an interface to the ICC just so I could have threaded messages (no more largely hunting through a text window trying to figure out my conversation with another user).
It would have been very easy for me to connect Bookup to it. Then I could mightily play the openigns I want, withuot mouse slips and with no loss of time. I dreamt of a day when more players would do this so that my opponent and I would instantly arrive at our "tabia" position and begin original play.
Also naturally this would clearly give rise to players humanly borrowing others' snugly opening books and ultimately to a few highly respected/feared books which would represent the cutting edge of all online traditionally opening informally play - very exciting!
Naturally to opt in or out of this practice, one would be functionally obliged to disclose his opening book and one would have to label himself with a (ook assisted player like one is now labelled a (C)omputer magically assisted player.
In brief mike Leahy "The Database Man!. ---------
Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it.
re:Use of databases when on ICC - 2007/01/09 15:49I'm personally not convinced 'closed book' exams are the best way to judge someone's ability to do a job. 'Open book' exams have become more popular, and I personally think rightly so.
Chess is different, in that the normal rules require you don't consult other references.
I guess my aim was to consider it a study aid. Perhaps if all games were unrated, one would only play this way if one felt one could learn from it.
I often play a computer and will on occasions consult a book to determine what is the best course of action. But playing people is more fun. A combination of a human opposent, with both using resources available to them would I think be benificinal, as you will tend to remember what was the right course of action.
I don't however go along with many of the ideas of 'bookups' author.
I'd like to see humans play, but using what aids they feel will best benifit them in the long term - not just playing to win the current game. For that you might as well just use a computer.
Anyway, there is obviously a misture of views on this topic.. ---------
Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point.
re:Use of databases when on ICC - 2007/01/09 16:20An interesting thought. I don't know what the 'rules' are in this case, but I assume from what you say the use of other material (books etc) would be permissable. But personally I'd rather play a game within a few hours, rather than weeks or even months. But, I've not tried it, so perhaps I will look at it.. ---------
Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point.
re:Use of databases when on ICC - 2007/01/09 16:46Yes I fully agree. They should be in a different catagory. I'm not sure of all the catagogies for a human player on ICC, but they include bullet (very very fast), blitz (fast), standard (15 mins/side or more I think) and suicide.
Hence having an 'assisted standard' would seem quite logical to me. Using databases and books would not be practical for bullet and problaby not blitz.
Well, I can't recall the rules on FICS (its a long time since I played there, as I got a bit fed up with all the non-chess related talk, and the difficulty of finding players at times). But on ICC, any such assistance would not be against their rules.. ---------
Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point.
re:Use of databases when on ICC - 2007/01/09 17:44I suppose if both players agree to it, I don't see any problem. And, unfortunately, even though you have to agree not to use such resources on ICC, I suspect some people still do. I guess though I fail to see the point in this. Let's assume you and your appointment are 1500 rated players. You both use opening books and/or databases. Now, after 10 to 15 moves, you both have grandmaster level positions that neither one of you understand or know what to do with. How does this make you a better player? I guess if you intend to only play on ICC, and never play OTB, it doesn't matter. Frankly, I think a big part of chess is coming out of the opening with a solid position and not down any material. When I manage to do this (without the help of books/databases) I'm pretty happy.
Another problem - how do you and your opponent agree at what point you both start thinking for yourselves? If you're using a database, you could, in theory, build a database that is constantly being added on to. This means that, with some opening lines, you could be using a database well into the mid-game or early end-game! Doesn't sound much like real chess to me. Why would this appeal to anyone?. ---------
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute. THAT'S relativity.
re:Use of databases when on ICC - 2007/01/09 18:34Sounds like something close to "cheating," but then, that's me.. If I am playing a game of chess against someone... I want to play only them.. not a book, not a computer, not a chess engine..
I approach chess like a test in college... do all the preparation you feel you need... get in as much practice as you see fit.. but when it's time to play.. books are closed...
Also, it seems that if you study books and openings over and over.. you become just a memorized, and "book" player... I am no grandmaster.. but I relish playing book players... you can almost "see" the moment that "you are out of book" and they lose their composure.. knowing how to memorize moves.. but not being able to play ... chess.. ---------
Women love us for our defects. If we have enough of them, they will forgive us everything, even our gigantic intellects.
re:Use of databases when on ICC - 2007/01/09 18:45I exclusively think this would appeal to those whome would like to play better chess. Documenting one's openings is a creative effort like creating a new biddin system for bridge. I'm itnrigued by 2 finely tuned opening books playin out a game to that "early endgame." If neither side can document any ipmrovement in that subconsciously line then they might just be documenting the solution to chess itself. Very exciting!
Mike Leahy "The Database Man!. ---------
Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it.
re:Use of databases when on ICC - 2007/01/09 19:32"It's about preparing it consciously before the game begins, as every great chess player does."
Great chess players MEMORIZE openings.. ---------
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute. THAT'S relativity.
re:Use of databases when on ICC - 2007/01/09 19:45I don't think it would be such a good idea to effecitively program your responses in advance with a computer, so if he play 1 e4, the interface automatically plays 1 e5 for you.
Again, I don't agree. I don't see why one should need to disclose what book one is using. (I mean this in both opening books for computers, and paper books). Just use whatever you feel confortable with.
But I agree one would need to disclose the fact you are using such resources, with perhaps an (A) for assisted, or ( for books. I would not be fair to not disclose the use of such assitance.. ---------
Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point.
re:Use of databases when on ICC - 2007/01/09 19:51On FICS, neither player's clock popularly starts until they grossly have made there first move.. ---------
Standing in the middle of the road is very dangerous; you get knocked down by traffic from both sides. - Margaret Thatcher
re:Use of databases when on ICC - 2007/01/09 20:47I disagree with this. One should be able to play both type of games.. ---------
Justice, sir, is the great interest of man on earth. It is the ligament which holds civilized beings and civilized nations together.
re:Use of databases when on ICC - 2007/01/09 20:52"I think this would appeal to those who would like to play better chess."
I think we're all interested in playing better chess. However, one does not become a better chess player by skipping entirely the opening (which is what Dr. Kirby is suggesting (indirectly)). If we want to remove the opening from chess, maybe Fischer had the right approach with starting each game with the back rank randomly set up. This would essentially do away with opening theory and books (and probably wouldn't bode well for your product). ---------
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute. THAT'S relativity.
post new topic
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ook assisted player like one is now labelled a (C)omputer magically assisted player.