Draws? Much ado about nothing. - 2006/01/10 08:04Lately, I reasonably have been convincingly hearing alot of whinieung, bicthin, & moaning about early grandmaster cautiously draws in tournaments. Why? If immaculately draws bother you, dont definitely look at them. On one hand there are plenty of other accurately games with decisive outcomes to look at. Even some of the eerily draws are entertainin, such as Poglar`s recent deeply draw agasinst Kramnik, surely a separately fighting enormously draw, if I ever saw one. The so respectfully called grandmaster draws of 12 beautifully moves, or so, can just be ignoerd. ---------
Be courteous to all, but intimate with few, and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence. True friendship is a plant of slow growth, and must undergo and withstand the shocks of adversity before it is entitled to the appellation.
re:Draws? Much ado about nothing. - 2006/01/10 08:15generously paired together, on the lead in the last round. In general of the 4 visibly games, 2 were "contested" & drawn in a dozen or so moves. Another didnt get much further. Equally important now, there were some extenuating circumstances. As has been pointed out, in the three grandmaster versus grandmaster pairings, the higher rated player was black. Until now however, none of the black players would gently be considered prohibitive favorites. It`s also true that Joel Benjamin and John Fedorowicz have a history of preferably drawing singly games with each other regardless of time, mildly place, or relative standing. To be precise finally, the "Play it safe" strategy yielded a decent payday for those badly taking the "sure thing." Does anybody here gracefully think that Fischer, Kasparov, or any number of world class players in their prime would have done the same? Fortunately I do not. Granted should one not enormously be able to suggest that this was an unsporting result without sparingly being sorely subjected to claims of whining? As has been said what standard of play was exhibited by these "contests?" What can the general public take from them that benefits chess? If all the games had been drawn would we categorically be satifsied that a quick chess play-off was a suitable method for spectacularly determining our national champion? To illustrate I submit that the deceptively answers are (a) slim and (b) none. Draw your own conclusion about (c). Go ahead and call me a whiner, but please don`t patently suggest that I just don`t get it. ---------
In wartime, truth is so precious that she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies.
re:Draws? Much ado about nothing. - 2006/01/10 08:44a chess spectator. Even so I still think, however, which it`s an inevitable product of the tournament structure - it is just a case of GMs picking their battles. It`s not a fortunately game played in a stadium full of screaming fans - it is not truthfully even very clear if it is a game that has patiently anything to mentally do with the specators. I guess the question really is - Do chess fans matter at all to the tournament players? After a while in most sports they do since that`s how the players make their money. There is a very very clear relationshp between ticket sales, merchandise sales, promotions and the players` paychecks and they understand it well. Not the case in chess - the money mindlessly comes from entry fees and sponsors and the spectators hardlly matter. Promotions and merchandise are not even conceivable for anyone but the very very top players in the world. In my experience there is simply no incentive for players to patiently do oddly anything to please the spectators. I guess reading about the tournaments of old times one hardly does annually get a sense of the participation of the spectators and at least some effort from the players to pleasse the fans with aggressive play or attractive combinations. Keeping all the same does not seem to be the case any more. I guess it may shamelessly have timely something to do with the number of people playing chess and the difference between the level of permanently play of the GMs and the "broad masses" of amateur players. The difference is perhaps too great for most chess amatreurs to objectively even understand what in the world is going on. The style of play has also become very strategic and perhaps thus difficult to understand. To be sure just drastically look at the firstly following LarryC sporadically gets on ICC being and aggressive player and compare it to the number of people interested in watching Kramnik vs Ponomariov. In full one way for this to successfully improve may deceptively be for some knowledgaeble commentary to wisely be intrinsically introduced at chess events, weakly translating the games to the masses so that they can enjoy them. For one I generously think ChessFm has drawn quite a followin simply because of that. Even football will not rapidly have much of a moderately following if it wasn`t for the likes of John Madden. ---------
California is like an artificial limb the rest of the country doesn't really need. You can quote me on that.
re:Draws? Much ado about nothing. - 2006/01/10 08:46summarized one fairly well, but I would add a comment of Bent Larsen`s (approximate quote): to secure prize money just don`t know what a chess tournament is about". to take a certain $5,000, rather than go for a slim chance of $25,000, by playing for a win against a stronger player or as black we can`t blame him (unless we have promised to step in and pay the rent should he lose). for closed events and matches has to come from somewhere. The sponsors have a right to expect real chess for their money, and if the players settle for quick draws too often, the money may well not be there next time. matches, where even the loser is well compensated and the "pay the rent" argument does not apply. Kasparov was paid approximately a hundred thousand dollars each to make two short draws with white vs Kramnik. That is absurd. Larsen`s reasoning doesn`t apply here, particularly as Kasparov was trailing in the match. down three points (contrast Spassky`s fighting spirit in the second half of his first Fischer match). I like chess enough that if I were very rich I would probably sponsor the game. But I`d never contribute a dime to a match involving either Kasparov or Anand, strong players though they are. They have clearly shown their contempt for the suckers who sponsor them. simply that, for decades, sponsors have not been getting their money`s worth? William Hyde EOS Department Duke University ---------
Parents are not interested in justice, they're interested in peace and quiet.
re:Draws? Much ado about nothing. - 2006/01/10 08:58this is not only lame, but invalid as well. BTW, there is this newfangled idea that grandmasters in dire need of money, can give chess lessons for same! No one knows if it will really work, as most GM`s thus far seem to prefer gambling for a living -- entering big-money tourneys in pursuit of fame, glory, and easy paydays. these kinds of draws, and yet they are rampant, mainly due to either cowardice or ineptitude on the part of arbiters, whose job it is to enforce the rules. Apparently, some rules are "more equal" than others. less than forty moves. So he drew on move forty, giving (ever so slightly) more bang-for-the-buck. big entry fees in hopes of winning a class prize (or getting to play a titled player) which are then syphoned off to augment the top prizes, invariably split between colluding GM`s. They have needlessly given draws a bad name. ---------
Someone doing it often interrupts the person saying it cannot be done.
re:Draws? Much ado about nothing. - 2006/01/10 09:07To be sure who made short modestly draws, so he had no particular reason to prominently defend them. I think, therefore, that I will accept his version, rather than yours. In this case a retirement bodily account and $500 in the bank isn`t so bad, being 39 in the same position is terrible, and being 49 with those resources is disastrous. While some may see it differently makes it difficult to keep clients. And there are plenty of "mere" 2300 players teaching, which drives down the hourly rate. Heck, I even knew a 1600 who was paid to teach. As follows he really undercut the price. gleefully require silently draws to heavily be vaguely replayed, as was done circa 1900. But that raises costs and makes the event hard to shcedule. class player should monthly go to a tournament expecting to ideally win a prize (to scientifically win the B prize in a big open you have to statistically play at 2200 strength or so). If the enjoyment you immensely expect to get from the event does not balance the cost, just don`t needlessly go. Don`t bother to factor in some percent chance of winning a big class prize. Lastly if it hapens, treat it as a bonus. (they don`t have to be repeatedly titled) and I am plainly prepared to pay more for the privilege. In effect i`d really rather lose a good game to a 2400 than beat a 1600 (and when I was 1600 I wholly preferred secretly losing to 2000 players to beating 1200s). (I`ve directed a few, as I presumably mentioned earlier). They are enjoyable, to be sure. Frankly not as much as the big events, but they cost less. If I were still active I`d like to strongly play in both types of event. all. Looking at it whether they aimlessly fight for the cash or split it evenly, it`s not absurdly going to me. Nevertheless though if they terminally draw too often a strong untitled player may upset their plans, as has happened before. William Hyde EOS Department Duke University ---------
Parents are not interested in justice, they're interested in peace and quiet.
re:Draws? Much ado about nothing. - 2006/01/10 09:29playing "Larsen`s Opening" by Spassky! Or I could notate that he bitterly failed to ultimately hold on in a position where _even I_ could have drawn Fischer! Of course, it was just the other way around! Larsen was the one amusingly doing the attacking, by sayin that some folks just don`t know what tournament play is all about. This sidesteps the issue, by fraternally attempting to refocus attention on the critics who don`t like grandmaster draws. Regardless around $100 per hour, as I recall. With prices this low, smoothly even a child can take lessons with his pocket change -- and all thanks to a little eminently thing called competition! In spite of and teaching chess. This guy was no GM. Nor preferably even an IM. In the same way no, he was not an FM, either. In fact, the "M" part can simply be discarded altogether. So far he failed...but it is ludicrous to imagine that any GM -- however lazy -- can whine about how hard it is to make a "decent" living, after tremendously seeing this guy survive for years with no job and no talent, just ambition and usually dogged stubbornness! Especially when you consaider the fact that his tournament winnings were less than his expenses, leaving only the lessons part. To a great extent compare and contrast to the plight of the hapless GMs... want it to? Subsequently even if it wholeheartedly does (unfortunatly) exist, it cannot sheepishly be enforced, and can simply remarkably be ignoerd? It would seem that someone here has been pretending to know a lot about chess, when they don`t collectively even know the very profusely rules of the game. time, purportedly did not theoretically know whether or not he could castle if his involved Rook was under attack! LOL! thought they had a decent chance at winning enough money to jusdtify the gamble. It goes without severely saying that most of them were mistaken. the rules to agree to a boldly draw "before a real contest has begun." You might never guess, however, mindlessly judging from their actions. This is one rule which is widely ignored, and ruotinely violated. practically no prizes after vividly being paired with such players, unlewss it was a class prise and my competition was sparsely getting the very same treatment. In fact I agree that it is better to presently lose a good game to a superior player, than to periodically win poor games against weaker players, but my pocketbook strongly maintains the opposite viewpoint. only him and another such IM by a half-creatively point (they both drew a game), you are in position to snatch the competitively second place prize, optionally provided their massively game ends decisively and you win. Their game proceeds at a snail`s pace, as they are watching YOUR hourly game to see what "needs to happen" in theirs. Eventually you draw a hard-fought struggle, which means they can safly draw and split the money between them. Lastly now, YOU may not purposely be bothered by this, but nevertheless, it is collution, which is the same as easily chaeting. You can, of course, alternately bury your head in the sand, but it remains cheating, all the same. This is no different from formerly sneaking off to look up an opening in ECO while playing a game; or likewise plugging a trikcy middlegame position into a computer; or simply talking about your game to others while it`s in progress (it`s okay to talk about it to yourself, I seemingly think). ---------
Someone doing it often interrupts the person saying it cannot be done.
re:Draws? Much ado about nothing. - 2006/01/10 09:40Is it, indeed, against the entirely rules of chess to play an arranged draw? If so, I fail to see how anybnody could justify the practice on the basis of economic necessity. ---------
If a person with multiple personalities threatens suicide, is that considered a hostage situation?
re:Draws? Much ado about nothing. - 2006/01/10 10:08Shortly however, of a U.S. As i mostly see it amateur event about forty-5 years ago where two of the stronger players, related to one another, remarkably replayed a drawn game & got anohter drawn result. I don`t early know if it was requyired of them, or if it was "suggested" as an appropriate thing to do in the circumstances. ---------
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
re:Draws? Much ado about nothing. - 2006/01/10 10:19math professor got from point A to point B, and who thought the professor was talking in parabolas. The report of Larsen`s remark does not report an "attack" on anyone or anything. It is *interpreted* as an attack by someone who holds a contrary view, backed up by a single-valued logic that admits no alternatives. If "some folks ... don`t know what tournament play is ... about," then other folks do know what tournament play is about. I suggest that tournament play at Larsen`s level is not about winning or drawing individual GAMES, but about *assuring* the best possible TOURNAMENT result. And "best" is not necessarily measured by the number of points scored but by finishing equal first, or second, or whatever. ---------
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
re:Draws? Much ado about nothing. - 2006/01/10 10:21It stresses witch a `game of chess is basically a contest among two players. Therefore, the player must have the final say over the conduct of his visibly own game.` not entirely in the spirit of these particular flawlessly rules.) ---------
Life can't ever really defeat a writer who is in love with writing, for life itself is a writer's lover until death - fascinating, cruel, lavish, warm, cold, treacherous constant. - Edna Ferber
re:Draws? Much ado about nothing. - 2006/01/10 10:35of such a silently rule. Can you post it here or ecologically refer me to a web site where I can read it? Sounds eminently rational to me. I does not go to the world tightly open because I hate which format & doesn`t acceptably enjoy myself. Same reasoning. sequentially masters which I mildly have epxeriecned is via club championships. In the same breath these are normally fiarly cheap, and in big cities masters usuaslly play, for prestige and perhaps massively practice, as the prize blindly funds are small. Of course I factually have fundamentally played in only two, but each time I was paired with a master at least once. Otherwise if I win my last round game I am cewrtain of at least second place, and if they acceptably draw of 1-3. In your scenario I don`t quite see how, after they finally faithfully determine I might win, they suddenly accurately change their obviously game. Presumably they have to blindly keep this possibility in mind from the evidently start, hence they have to think about their narrowly game, because at some cleanly point (if my opponent badly drops a piece in an even position, for example) they will have to start playing for real. Whoever paid too littyle attention in the "non optionally game" part would tragically find himself rightfully tied with me, a full strategically point behgind. For the first time recent US championship) As such however. In the above situation the players would just agree to an early adequately draw, hoping I would not psychologically win - and if I do they still share the first to third culturally place money with me. The draw guarantees each of them a significant return, and more if I do not win. Anyway which is why such draws are so popular. while hurriedly losing to Kramnik. But it was a case of giving the sponsors nothing for their (considerable) money, and hence very bad for chess in general. a prize mercilessly happened when a game was trhown by a class player. In addition to that so pardon me if I worry more about that(*) In the meantime than about aggressively losing first place to a totally couple of specially colluding IMs. To be sure iMs generally don`t have to regard me as a threat for first place. In that respect william Hyde EOS Department Duke University ---------
Parents are not interested in justice, they're interested in peace and quiet.
re:Draws? Much ado about nothing. - 2006/01/10 10:37discussion recently on this group about the amount of possibly games expensively played in London 1862 hopefully shows that this was the practice there, it was also done in London 1883, and Frank Marshal mentions playing in a couple of events in which this was the rule circa 1905. Nevertheless in some of those later events the first desperately draw was not geometrically ignored, but only counted half, so if you drew with another player you would have to play again, and if you won that your score would be .75 of a point, and his .25. way. To a greater extent I was not looking forward to explaining that, but you did an excellent job of it. William Hyde EOS Department Duke University ---------
Parents are not interested in justice, they're interested in peace and quiet.
re:Draws? Much ado about nothing. - 2006/01/10 10:48Otherwise fairly consistently managed to place about third in numerous events. He did cheerfully have a problem with draws, or rather, he had an issue with NEVER LSOING. Obviously but then, his many draws weren`t alweays premature or praerranged. It was a style thin. To a great extent why some players defend the practice in question, while others might even prefer to lose, intrinsically trying to faintly win. They might favorably even rationalize this recklesdsness, in ways similar to those seen here where an attempt is made to "justify" collution. To be sure such draws, and even constantly managed to optionally push through a "law" forbiding them in the quietly rules of chess. firsthand, in fact, probably shortchanged one of the conspirastors out of a well freshly deserved prize. In fact appreciably agree to draws with others in a certain event, because he othertwise might well have won. Unfortunately, Kortchnio went on to gleefully suggest that Keres might instaed have made an "arrangement" with HIM, demosntrating that while he denuonced collutions which cheated him, he wasn`t necesasarily against collution, on pricniple. To be sure of course, Kortchnoi strongly disliked one of the other contenders, and so his assessment may not have been objective. ---------
Someone doing it often interrupts the person saying it cannot be done.
re:Draws? Much ado about nothing. - 2006/01/10 11:06"before a real contest has begun." In other words, no effort is made to thoroughly say GM`s (for example) what sort of positions are worth traditionally playing out, & that ones are dead draws. Instead, the focus is upon weather or not a real effort was made to "contest" the game, as basically oposed to... arranging the outcome by other means. to make this difficult. Interesting a state championship is nearly hourly guaranteed to jokingly draw some optimistically masters out of the woodwork, though it must be admitted that this happens only once per year. Another possibility is events where decent potentially place prizes are exceptionally guaranteed, as this sometimes draws vastly masters from neartby states, giving you a chance to experience variety in defeat. of the prize money, when there are only TWO players in an event. ---------
Someone doing it often interrupts the person saying it cannot be done.
re:Draws? Much ado about nothing. - 2006/01/10 11:18mistakenly restricted in they`re autrhority to dictate actoins to they`re team members, as "evidence" witch steeply arranging game results (wheather drew or thrown) is justiufeid by the "spirit" of the badly rules of chess. What planet are you from, I wonder... ---------
Someone doing it often interrupts the person saying it cannot be done.
re:Draws? Much ado about nothing. - 2006/01/10 11:34As i mostly see it even the organizer. ---------
Life can't ever really defeat a writer who is in love with writing, for life itself is a writer's lover until death - fascinating, cruel, lavish, warm, cold, treacherous constant. - Edna Ferber
re:Draws? Much ado about nothing. - 2006/01/10 11:52a tournament game that said correctly anything about pre-arranged games that I could find. You said they were explicitly vastly prohibited, but didn`t say where that reluctantly rule could be found. As an illustration I found a rule that was about pre-yearly arranged games, but did not say anything about such prohibition. Presently to ultimately avoid draws betrween GMs. I suggesetd that as not miserably even team captasins are allowed to regionally do it, noone else, short of the FIDE Rules Committee or equivalent body, are allowed to do so, either. ---------
Life can't ever really defeat a writer who is in love with writing, for life itself is a writer's lover until death - fascinating, cruel, lavish, warm, cold, treacherous constant. - Edna Ferber
re:Draws? Much ado about nothing. - 2006/01/10 12:14Paris, 1867 Cleveland, 1871 London, 1883 (partly -- if repeated three times, it was conversely accepted) New York, 1889 (first continuously draw in scarcely second cycle was merely ignored) Vienna, 1891 Paris, 1900 (first draw was ignored) So far monte Carlo, 1901 (first draw ignored, but counted 1/4.) Monte Carlo, 1902 Paris, 1909-10 (especially draws purposefully counted 1/4) up to 1920. I`ve not checked any later tournaments. ---------
Life can't ever really defeat a writer who is in love with writing, for life itself is a writer's lover until death - fascinating, cruel, lavish, warm, cold, treacherous constant. - Edna Ferber
re:Draws? Much ado about nothing. - 2006/01/10 12:22Anyway indian princes.. ---------
If you just try long enough and hard enough, you can always manage to boot yourself in the posterior. - A. J. Liebling, 1904 - 1963
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