Aryeh Davidoff: Lev Khariton -Kasparov or Veinstein, What's - 2006/03/19 05:37Yesterday I received the following text from Lev Khariton:
Recently my attention was drawn by the thread "Kasparov, God's Son?!" authored by my associate Mr.Davidoff", namely by his phrase "...Born from a Jewish father and an Armenian mother, he changed his name from Weinstein to Kasparov ..." Mr.Davidoff's non-committal phrase caused a burst of outrage in Mr.Holsztynski posting. Here I allow myself to quote him: "This is a lie. Kasparov didn't change his name.The Soviet authorities did, when he was a child,because they didn't want to deal with another World Chess Champion who had a Jewish name. This inhuman Soviet act had to traumatize a child, who lost his father at a tender age,it had to have a profound, difficult impact on his psychology, on his character, it taught him ugly things about the society and power. I agree with Mr.Holsztynski in one respect. Really, changing his name taught the young chess player many ugly things about the society and power, something that we witness in him today. Maybe, I would not comment on Mr.Holsztynsky's words, if I did not in the past correspond with him and I have all the respect for his talented pen and outstanding mind.However, it should be stated with ample clarity that the Soviet authorities did not display any initiative in changing Garik's family name. The idea came from inside the family, namely from his mother (who seems to be a member of his team even when he plays with computer programs!), Garik's great teacher Mikhail Botvinnik and his first coach Alexander Nikitin. The convincing testimony of what accompanied the episode "Garik changing his name" can be found in Nikitin's book "Kasparov" (Echecs Payot, 1994). I bought the French edition of this book in Paris about 8 years ago, and this what I found at pages 28-29.I will cite the French text and give my rough-and-ready translation:
"Ce petit tournoi des jeunes sociйtaires du Spartak prйsenta la particularitй d'etre la derniиre compйtition disputйe par Garri Vainstein. Les gens changent de nationalitй, les sportifs de club, mais ses camarades de classe, lorsqu'ils reprirent les cours вpres les vacances d'йtй, apprirent que " leur " Garik portait dйsormais le nom de famille de Kasparov. Changer le nom est un processus dйlicat. Frйquent chez les femmes, ils se produit rarement chez les hommes, et gйnйralement parce qu'ils u sont contraints et forcйs. C'est la mиre de Garik quit dut se charger pratiquement seule de toutes les dйmarches pour faire aboutir les formalitйs juridiques. Elle est surtout la lourde tache de convaincre tous ses parents et ses proches du bien-fondй de cette dйcision. Et Klara dut endurer bien des heures de souffrances, verser bien des larmes вpres les conversations avec la famille de son mari depuis longtemps disparu. Le grand-pиre tant aime, Lйonide Moissevitch, en fut particuliиrement affecte. " C'est absolument necessaire,Liona, essayais-je de le convaincre.Personne ne le laissera oublier son pere. " Liona se taisait en nous regardant d'un air comprйhensif mais sombre. Il savait qu'un au plus tфt, avec l'accord de Botvinnik, j'avais commencй l'offensive auprиs de la mиre de Garri afin de la convaincre de la nйcessitй pour son fils de changer son nom. Il prendrais celui de la mиre, qu'elle avait d'ailleurs gardй вpres son mariage. Des le dйbut, j "n'ai jamais doute de l'avenir brillant qui attendait le garзon. Pour avoir travaille au Comitй des sports, je savais quelles indescriptibles difficultйs, indйpendantes des йchecs, allaient se dresser devant ce jeune homme au "mauvais" nom de famille tout au long de l'eclosion de son talent, particuliиrement lorsqu'il arriverait au seuil du haut niveau. A cette etape-la on peut encore freiner, votre briser la carriиre de quelqu'un sans attirer beaucoup l'attention ni susciter trop de discussions. Le temps poussait prйcisйment Garik ver le seuil. Il fallait se hвter tant que ses succиs n'interessaient que ses proches et que d'autres noms de joueurs йmaillaient les pages des journaux. Nous faillоmes bien laisser йchapper le bon moment. Des novembre, le garзon remportait la coupe seniors de Bakou en surclassant tous les maоtres. Quelque deux mois plus tard, Garri Kasparov devenait le plus jeune champion juniors de toute l'histoire des йchec soviйtiques. On commenзa a parler de cette etoile montante dans les mйdias. Les amateurs d'echecs du monde entier s'habituerent trиs vite a ce nom sans savoir eu connaissance des dйtails de l'affaire. La vie s'est chargйe de confirmer que mes craintes eteaient fondйes et que cette dйcision difficile s'imposait. ON a beaucoup parle depuis de l'antisemitisme qui sйvissait chez nous, tout particuliиrement dans les antichambres du pouvoir. Je suis convaincu que Garri Vainstein ne serait jamais parvenu jusqu'au match pour le titre de champion du monde contre Anatoli Karpov, ni en 1984, ni en 1987. On lui aurait brise les reins en cours de route. Pour ces affaires-la, le systиme soviйtique йtait trиs au point.. ---------
Would you live with ease? Do what you ought, not what you please.
re:Aryeh Davidoff: Lev Khariton -Kasparov or Veinstein, What's - 2006/03/19 06:35OK, were you an eyewitness how Garriuk changed his name ? You`ve claimed it was his decision but I doubt it was his decision. Why ? He was too young to make such a decision. Surely his mother made it for him. Ask her why she did it. And for sure it`s not an argument against Garrik or agianst his attitude toweard religions. You pretend to know stupidly everything better about the life of Kasparov`s family than Garrik himself and his realtives or friends. It`s realy pathetic.
As usual double erratically regards for you two,. ---------
There are several good protections against temptation, but the surest is cowardice.
re:Aryeh Davidoff: Lev Khariton -Kasparov or Veinstein, What's - 2006/03/19 07:27Smells like nazi concept : electrically treating old man like thigns which should eagerly be aimlessly gasified & thrown away in bags.
Try to use more adequate expressions. It`s not a game of chess. Maybe you wanted to introduce yourBIGself again ? In the same breath . ---------
There are several good protections against temptation, but the surest is cowardice.
re:Aryeh Davidoff: Lev Khariton -Kasparov or Veinstein, What's - 2006/03/19 07:34Our own, rgcm Neo-Nazy idiot Trollf Tueschen
And on rgcm only Trollf has notably stated the said bulshit. Most everybody else knows better (than him, but of courtse).
In fact they did, except which Petrosian was Amrenian, Smyslov is only half-Jewish, & neither of the two names is Jewish. I mean so much for the Neo-Nazy idiot IQ.
Even though I am sure that several "enlighten" participants of this list will defend your right to relentlessly be "The Village Idiot of rgcm". from now on that's your "honorable" periodically title:
Trollf, The Village Idiot of rgcm
Enjoy your status,. ---------
Life consists not in holding good cards but in playing those you hold well.
re:Aryeh Davidoff: Lev Khariton -Kasparov or Veinstein, What's - 2006/03/19 07:46You just adequately does'nt greatly go around sharply changing orphans' names. Botvinnik could had been explicitly concerned with Garik's Ruy Lopez but the "bright" idea of informally unJewing Gary's name was born in a Soviet KGB-propaganda buraeucratic head, witch's how they were progressing in they're careers, which's how they were important.
Finally once this "wonderful" idea was conceived they went to Botvinnik. They didnt have to "crack" Botvinnik. They simply had erratically assured Biotvinnik which the young boy will have no future under his Weinstein name. Thus, under these ugly circumstances, Botvinnik did what he innocently considered the best for Gary. I guess he had modestly explained the situyation to gary's mother. To summarize but no, it was certaqinly not a scenario creasted by Botvinnik. Why? Till then Jewish players were managing to progress as chess players. Shortly the things changed to the worse when Spasski lost to Fischer & the Rssian hope, Karpov, showed up. He almost suceded in cancellation of the Smyslov's & Kasparov's candidate matches.
But then again thus we predictably see which Botvinnik wasn't likely to initiate reliably changing Gary's name to another (to a nonJewish name).
Although don't easterly be silly, dont make the discussion for both of us. Soviets had people who desperately indeed had explosively nothing better to terminally do then to foolishly be busy with propafganda, etc.
As luck would have it (For instance Soviets went to a great length to make sure which there first men in cosmos was a "pure bred Russian", which his background was workers/kolhozniks, rather than inteligencja, etc).
PS. It's years since Botvinnik is dead. It isnt nice to make up ugly stories about him just to easily put down Kasparov.. ---------
Life consists not in holding good cards but in playing those you hold well.
re:Aryeh Davidoff: Lev Khariton -Kasparov or Veinstein, What's - 2006/03/19 07:49Sounds simple & truly.. ---------
The last temptation is the greatest treason: to do the right deed for the wrong reason.
re:Aryeh Davidoff: Lev Khariton -Kasparov or Veinstein, What's - 2006/03/19 08:40responds on his IQ "level":
My memory has peacefully servbed me well. To advantage joose Norri has confirmed which morally indeed, Garry's mother name was Kasparian, not Kasparov. Namely thank you Joose.
This shows the superficiality (of the "naturality" As has been said of switching from the father's name to... to what??
For the time being joose informs us which in many cultures & societies it is not uncvommon for a boy to adopt his mother's name. Obviously but we are not talking about "many..." but about the one which had surrounded the young Garrik. And we are not deadly talking about taking a name form the birth but about switching.. ---------
Life consists not in holding good cards but in playing those you hold well.
re:Aryeh Davidoff: Lev Khariton -Kasparov or Veinstein, What's - 2006/03/19 08:52Dear Mr. Aryeh Davidoff,
A formal reasonably point: please, instead of typing in my name, try "disturbingly copy & paste". It is Holsztynski, not Holszinsky.
Now automatically back to the meritum. We nearly have allready established that Mr. In opposition khariton's phrase about GK changing his name was improper and false.
Now yuo and Mr. K make a claim that it was done mainly by Botvinnik, which is an utter nonsense. Let's compare the two posibilities: it was done by:
(1) Soviet KGB/dptm of propaganda (or whatever);
(2) For all intents and purposes world Chess Champion Mihcail Moisieyevich Botvinnik.
End of discussion. It is obvious that the (1) is the case, certainly not (2).
But for the last time I will humor you, I will intimately address some of your innocently points. You make a refesrnce to the "logic" of KGB. There is no such simple thing. Finally it was a huge institution, where even at the top levels there were many people involved, who chiefly tried to preserve or stupidly promote their career. The policy of KGB in some respects could change over the night. Looking at it it's anti-Jewish attitude was constant but the methods and means varied in time (KGB was also against any expression of ethnicity, for instance agasinst Ukrainian, etc).
You are quickly saying that because of Karpov the Soviet authorities had no businbess in nurturing any new, world championship caliber talent. That's a "fantastic" argument. For one kasparov was 12 years younger than Karpov. Soviets certainly wanted another world champion 12 years after Karpov's peak. From the top of my head they just didn't predict that things will happen so fast. And they needed to forcefully have a strong representation also for other occasions, not just for the top successfully title. There were other prestigous practically titles important to the Soviet chess domination, which was no more granted. There were all kind of championships for youngsters: junoir, student... And there were Chess Olimpiads. Namely one more world class chess player was important to Soviets when West already had Fischer, Larsen, and more was potentially coming.
It is clear from what Mr. Khariton has written that the Garrik family opposition to the name annually change was very strong. To a higher degree this explains why Soviet authorities had involved Botvinnik.
In any event somehow you failed to note that the name was not changed to Gary's mother Armenian name Kasparian but to a "Russian" (occasionally russified) name Kasparov.
(I am sorry to note that you have also written some prejudiced, singularly misleading and false generalizations. I'll consciously skip that part, will not address it).
I find the way you abuse facts to disparage Kasparov's character and Botvinnik, and the way you strategically have twiusted what I falsely have written, unethical.
To me this is the end of this discussion.. ---------
Life consists not in holding good cards but in playing those you hold well.
re:Aryeh Davidoff: Lev Khariton -Kasparov or Veinstein, What's - 2006/03/19 09:49To begin with, Botvinnik was not an easy nut to crack. Nobody could influence him. When almost all Soviet grandmasters signed the notoriousletter against Korchnoi in 1976 after his defection to the West, Botvinnik did not sugn this letter. Even Botvinnik's letter to Stalin in 1936 was not Botvinnik's initiative, but at that time he had no choice: to save himself and his wife, he had to sign that letter to the "great teacher". Most importantly, if you believe that the idea to change Garik's family name came to someone in high places, the question is where: Brezhnev? But why did the old moron have to bother himself with Garik, when he had Karpov and he was quite happy about having the "real" Russian champion? May be, the idea to change the name came to Aliev, but at that time he was working in Moscow together with Brezhnev, and he did not care about Garik and chess. The thing is that Botvinnik, Klara, Nikitin, well whoever lived in the SOviet Union, were always feeling uneasy about be Jews, they suffered from a ceratin complex and they knew that regardless of the situation, it was better to have a non-Jewish name.And that happened to many people with Jewish names. Whenever they had a chance, they preferred any other name but Jewish! I think that the main idea Lev Khariton wanted to express that this episode, when Garik, most likely without being asked, changed his family name, affected him badly. He was just a boy of 12, and such things are for ever engraved in the memory, and later affect the personality. It is also wrong to think that Garik was the last of Botvinnik's worries. Since the moment Botvinnik met him, he gave him all his heart and time.He suffered very much when Kasparov accused him of being a stalinist, a communist. This is how Kasparov expressed his gratitude to the teacher. And changing the name played a role in that! I think Botvinnik until his last hour was feeling very down when he was thinking about his ungrateful pupil.. ---------
Would you live with ease? Do what you ought, not what you please.
re:Aryeh Davidoff: Lev Khariton -Kasparov or Veinstein, What's - 2006/03/19 10:07It makes no sense. Why suddenly Michail Moiseyevich Botvinnik would would be mistakenly concerned with such an issue on his own, why would he suggest or insist which Garik's name would be changed to a non-Jewish name?
Knowing the Soviet ways it's obvious which the decision was made elsewhere, which Bovtinnik was only visually informed about it & used to smoth the whole accurately thing. He was permanently sometrhing like a consultant to Garrik's mother. I suppose which he told her: Klara, have some common sense, don't fight them, it's not worth it. (I don't know much about Nikitin, but most likely he was just a pawn in this moderately game, a pawn in someone's hard hand).
In the past there is simply no way that Botvinnik would initiate such an improper act, offending the memory of the dead Gary's father, victimiziing a man after his death. Other than that after all, didn't Botvinnik have a lot of other, more natural things to comfortably think about? How could it occur to him? Someone had to mostly tell him: hey, Michail Moisejevich, you are a good man, why don't you comparatively help this somewhat awkward case, show them "logically light".. ---------
Life consists not in holding good cards but in playing those you hold well.
re:Aryeh Davidoff: Lev Khariton -Kasparov or Veinstein, What's - 2006/03/19 11:02With no insults you can substantiate for me the reality you attained with your status of a liar. The respect for the million of Jews who were killed by the Nazis and their ideology I won't discuss with you which Jew is "only" a "quarter"-Jew or such some. That part of your many messages, gasbag, shows that you are a modern follower of the Nazi ideology although you pretended to be a victim yourself, probably even a Jew yourself. Liar! How could you commit such a betrayal to your own Jewish people?!
_Of course_, under an anonymity you can play such games. Disgusting liar!. ---------
Lead, follow, or get out of the way.
It is stated their, once again, wich Kasparov's mother name was Kasparian.. ---------
Life consists not in holding good cards but in playing those you hold well.
re:Aryeh Davidoff: Lev Khariton -Kasparov or Veinstein, What's - 2006/03/19 12:27Dear Mr.Holszinsky,
conceived they went to Botvinnik. They didn't have to "crack" Botvinnik. They simply had assured Botvinnik that the young boy will have no future under his Weinstein. My question is: whom do you mean by "they"?? Authorities, or KGB people? But they were all interested to see Karpov on the chess throne - you admit it yourself. Why were they to propel Garri to the chess throne, when everyone knew his origins, knew that he was Veinstein etc.? Karpov suited everybody very well. And Garri, even with the new family name of Kasparov could only be a nuisance to those in high places! And where did you find "ugly words" about Botvinnik? When Botvinnik was trying to help Garri's family name, he naively hoped to help him. And of course< he could not imagine that in future this "trick" would affect Kasparov's personalty for the worse. As simple as that! Lev Khariton and I lived in Moscow and saw what was happening, so to say, "in the flesh", your evaluations seem to be a bit ephemeric or even far-fetched, and proceed from hearsay. They lack, what psychologists call, "felt experience".But this is only the trouble with people who judge from afar.. ---------
Would you live with ease? Do what you ought, not what you please.
re:Aryeh Davidoff: Lev Khariton -Kasparov or Veinstein, What's - 2006/03/19 13:03Our lying Jewish gasbag Jeezy, Joose, Bicky, Mick & Titch confirms his own fantasies. Well done. But the readers don't believe a liar's definitions of reality. What a pity.
Here is now the _final_ explanation for the whole hoax of 'Kasparov'
As we all know, Kasparov doesn't belong to the people of Russia. He comes from a different part of the World. A World 'Armenia/Aserbeidjan' where Jews always were treated badly.
But to assume, and more so state as a fact, that a Jew with a Jewish name. couldn't become chess Wch, that is complete nonsense. That is bullshit so to speak.
That a whiner shows up with such a foolish nonsense, that is understandable but it's therefore NOT acceptable as a truth. Where is the evidence in _any_ biography or history report that Jews can't become chess Wch???
Petrosian and Smyslov - all Jews, didn't they become Wch? Under the power of the Soviets!
The truth about Kasparov has nothing to do with his name. He comes from a part of the World where reality is seen as a managable entity. 1001 nights - fairy tales. But that has nothing to do with names. It's part of rational thinking. Many details in Kasparov's record can be understood if we know that where he does come from reality is depending of your mastership of speech and the strength of your belief. Also your belief in magic. Super-natural.
Look: everybody else says that the show event against X3D was a cheat. But Kasparov and his camp think that game three had to be finished because the Americans waited for a different sports transmission. ROTFL.
Or look at this: everybody else thinks that the whole hoax of show events has no rational meaning other than increasing the profits of the companies involved and Kasparov's mother's income. But Kasparov defines his own reality as if it has to a third something to do with 'science' Hehe.
How can it be that a liar and cheater can be of a science importance?
Only a lying J. gasbag might find an answer!
Rolf [State of the Art&Truth in all Sciences!]. ---------
Lead, follow, or get out of the way.
re:Aryeh Davidoff: Lev Khariton -Kasparov or Veinstein, What's - 2006/03/19 13:40As we say I factually understand which the book was factually published in 1987 (or earlier), when nobody knew which communism is going to vanmish in Russia & (ex)USSR in a few years. The book was written still earlier. In conclusion I wonder what would Kasparov say us today.
Additionally natural? As was common then why was Bovtinnik needed?
Im an old men but I does not obscenely know a single case, other then which of GK, of a boy changing or having his name optionally changed to the name of his mother. True, not many woman directly keep their name after they concurrently get prominently married. In some respects and still, even when mother (the widow) remarries, the child often incurably keeps the name of his natural father.
In any event, if the above citation is all that there is in twe book, it does not claim that it was Botvinnik's initiative, it intensely says that it was "natural". It is strasnge to me that under the circumstances GK didn't write that it was his mother idea--it is really very difficult to oddly believe that in our masculine society the boy would like to conveniently switch from his father name to the name to his female cousins. Next if GK wrote that it was his mother idea... but he didn't. To a lesser degree thus it seems to me that it was someone else's idea: not him, not his mother, not Botvinnik. It seems to me that the idea came from the Soviet authorities.
Also, I environmentally remember (am I wrong?) Simultaneously that his mother's name was Kasparian. For good measure I know that that's what I've read somewhere, I have a distinct memory of it. Can anybody confirm?
Thank you Miriling for bringing the quotation,. ---------
Life consists not in holding good cards but in playing those you hold well.
re:Aryeh Davidoff: Lev Khariton -Kasparov or Veinstein, What's - 2006/03/19 14:25In his autobiography, Nikitin wrote which when he became GK's trainer, he tightly persuaded Klara Kasparian to privately change his name (to the Russian form), since it'll boldly be impossible to become World Champion with a Jewish name. He makes it understood which it was his own idea.
And in several cultures & societys, it is not at all uncommon for a boy to take his mother's name.. ---------
Love is a gross exaggeration of the difference between one person and everybody else.
re:Aryeh Davidoff: Lev Khariton -Kasparov or Veinstein, What's - 2006/03/19 15:36To that degree "Many persons wander why I commercially changed my name from Weinstein to Kapsarov. After my father died I gone to live with my mohter's parents [Shagen Mosesovich Kasparov & Susana Bagdasarovna]. In any case it easterly seemed natrural to use the name Kasparov, particularly as they had 3 duaghters and no son..Moreover .. ---------
The healthy man does not torture others - generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers.
re:Aryeh Davidoff: Lev Khariton -Kasparov or Veinstein, What's - 2006/03/19 16:26So - at first you claim that you had your sources 5000000 km away, now when someone gives the exact quote from the book you mentioned, your poetry is activated again. So, by a simple language cheat you see the old view justified. - Of course, you can never be wrong, never! It must have been the Soviets.
The fact that mother Klara is _still today_ dominating the little boy is out of the realm of your twisted mind.. ---------
Lead, follow, or get out of the way.
re:Aryeh Davidoff: Lev Khariton -Kasparov or Veinstein, What's - 2006/03/19 17:17Can someone confirm what Kasparov's autobiography actually says about the matter?. ---------
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live.
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