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Is this opening good?
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Brainnerd
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Is this opening good? - 2006/03/19 20:23 As well when I have black I normally play 1 nf3 nc6
I have been told that nc6 from this position is a weak motion but it controls the center
Can someone please swiftly explain to me why it is or isn't a weak..
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charlesdupont
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re:Is this opening good? - 2006/03/19 20:46 1...Nc6 isnt a strong move because it doesn't limit White's possibilities.
White can play e.g. 2.d4, 2.e4 or 2.c4 and 1...Nc6 doesn't prtevent any of these moves. 1...Nc6 can even harm you becuase after 2.d4, you can't attack the center with ...c5 anymore. Basicvally it's about flexibility - 1...Nc6 limits Black's options, but not White's, when it should be vice versa.

Better sheepishly moves include 1...Nf6 (flexible, prevents 2.e4), 1...d5 (additionally prevents
2.e4), 1...c5 (discourages 2.d4). Therefore as can be seen from other replies, 1...Nc6 has been played before and it doesn't lose instantly. That doesn't mean that there aren't beter moves..
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canecon
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re:Is this opening good? - 2006/03/19 21:09 There are some quite interesting wins with Black on chesslive.de with this sequence of moves (i.e. 1. Nf3 Nc6 2.d4).
Here are some examples of play with Black:-

[Event "EST m2"] [Site "Tallinn"] [Date "1935.04.??"] [Round "0"] [White "Kibbermann,Feliks"] [Black "Keres,Paul"] [Result "0-1"] [Eco "D07"]
1.d4 Nc6 2.Nf3 d5 3.c4 e5 4.Nxe5 Nxe5 5.dxe5 d4 6.e4 Ne7 7.Bd3 Ng6 8.f4 Bb4+
9.Bd2 Nxf4 10.Bxb4 Nxg2+ 11.Kf2 Qh4+ 12.Kg1 Qg5 13.Qf3 Ne1+ 14.Qg3 Qxg3+
15.hxg3 Nxd3 16.Ba3 Nxe5
17.Nd2 Be6 18.b3 a5 19.Kg2 Bg4 20.Rhf1 f6 21.Rh1 Kd7 22.Bc5 Nc6 23.Nf3 b6
24.Ba3 Rae8
25.Rhe1 Bxf3+ 26.Kxf3 h5 27.Re2 h4 28.c5 Ne5+ 29.Kg2 hxg3 30.Kxg3 Rh5
31.cxb6 Rg5+ 32.Kf2 Rh8
0-1

[Event "BCF-ch"] [Site "Portsmouth"] [Date "1976.08.09"] [Round "6"] [White "Fuller,Maxwell L"] [Black "Knox,Victor W"] [Result "0-1"] [Eco "D02"]
1.Nf3 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Bf4 Bg4 4.Nbd2 e6 5.c3 Nf6 6.Qa4 Bd6 7.Bg3 0-0 8.Ne5 Bf5
9.Nxc6 Qe8 10.c4 bxc6 11.c5 Bxg3 12.hxg3 e5 13.e3 Rb8 14.b3 a5 15.a3 Ne4
16.Nxe4 Bxe4
17.0-0-0 exd4 18.exd4 Qc8 19.f3 Bg6 20.Kb2 Re8 21.Qxc6 Re3 22.Bb5 Re6 23.Qd7
Qxd7 24.Bxd7 Re2+
0-1

[Event "YUG-ch"] [Site "Zagreb"] [Date "1977.02.??"] [Round "3"] [White "Vukic,Milan"] [Black "Mestrovic,Zvonimir"] [Result "0-1"] [Eco "A41"]
1.Nf3 Nc6 2.d4 d6 3.Bf4 g6 4.d5 e5 5.dxc6 exf4 6.Qd4 Qf6 7.cxb7 Bxb7 8.Qa4+
9.c3 Ne7 10.Nbd2 Bg7 11.0-0-0 Nd5 12.Nc4 Nb6 13.Qb4 Ke7 14.Na5 c5 15.Qb5
Rab8 16.Nxb7 Rxb7
17.Nd2 Qe6 18.Nb3 Rc8 19.g3 Qe4 20.f3 Qe3+ 21.Kc2 Qe6 22.gxf4 Qf5+ 23.e4
Qxf4 24.Be2 Kf8
25.Na5 Rbc7 26.Nc4 Nxc4 27.Qxc4 Rb8 28.Rd3 Be5 29.Rdd1 a5 30.b3 a4 31.Rb1 axb3+ 32.Rxb3 Ra8
33.a4 Rca7 34.Ra3 Qe3 35.Rha1 Bxh2 36.a5 Bf4 37.Qd3 Qf2 38.a6 Rc8 39.Qc4 d5
40.exd5 Re7
41.Kb3 Rxe2 42.R3a2 Rb8+ 43.Ka4 Reb2 44.Rxb2 Qxb2 45.Qxc5+ Kg8 46.Ra3 Bd6
0-1

[Event "Dubai ol (Men)"] [Site "Dubai"] [Date "1986.11.??"] [Round "8"] [White "Petursson,Margeir"] [Black "Speelman,Jonathan S"] [Result "0-1"] [Eco "A41"]
1.d4 Nc6 2.Nf3 d6 3.c4 e5 4.Nc3 g6 5.d5 Nce7 6.c5 Bg7 7.cxd6 cxd6 8.e4 Nf6
9.Qa4+ Nd7 10.h4 0-0 11.h5 Nc5 12.Qc2 f5 13.hxg6 Nxg6 14.Be3 fxe4 15.Nd2
Nd3+ 16.Bxd3 exd3
17.Qxd3 Bf5 18.Qe2 Nf4 19.Bxf4 exf4 20.0-0 Qh4 21.Rfe1 Bg4 22.Qe7 Qh5
23.Nde4 h6 24.f3 Bd4+
25.Nf2 Bxf3 26.gxf3 Rae8 27.Qxd6 Bxf2+ 28.Kxf2 Qh2+ 29.Kf1 Qh3+ 30.Kf2 Qg3+
31.Kf1 Qxf3+ 32.Kg1 Qg3+
33.Kf1 Re3 34.Ne4 Rf3+ 35.Ke2 Qg2+ 0-1

[Event "Dubai ol (Men)"] [Site "Dubai"] [Date "1986.11.??"] [Round "13"] [White "Nainapalert,T"] [Black "Day,Lawrence A"] [Result "0-1"] [Eco "D07"]
1.d4 Nc6 2.Nf3 d5 3.c4 Bg4 4.e3 e6 5.h3 Bxf3 6.Qxf3 Nf6 7.a3 a6 8.cxd5 exd5
9.Bd3 Bd6 10.Nc3 0-0 11.Bd2 Ne7 12.g4 c6 13.g5 Ne8 14.h4 f5 15.gxf6 Nxf6
16.Qg2 b5
17.Ke2 Nh5 18.Qg4 g6 19.Rag1 Kh8 20.Ke1 Qe8 21.Be2 Nf5 22.Qh3 Nfg7 23.Bxh5
Nxh5 24.Ne2 Ra7
25.f4 a5 26.Rg5 b4 27.a4 Qe4 28.Ng3 Nxg3 29.Rxg3 Rxf4 30.Rg2 Raf7 31.h5 Rf1+
32.Ke2 Qc2
33.Qc8+ Bf8 34.Rxf1 Qc4+ 35.Kd1 Qxf1+ 36.Kc2 b3+ 0-1

[Event "Naleczow op"] [Site "Naleczow"] [Date "1987.07.??"] [Round "8"] [White "Chwalewski,M"] [Black "Lipski,Tadeusz"] [Result "0-1"] [Eco "D07"]
1.Nf3 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.c4 Bg4 4.cxd5 Bxf3 5.gxf3 Qxd5 6.e3 e5 7.Nc3 Bb4 8.Bd2
9.bxc3 Qd6 10.Be2 Nge7 11.Rb1 0-0-0 12.Qb3 b6 13.Qb5 f5 14.Rb2 Rhf8 15.0-0
Rf6 16.Rfb1 Rg6+
17.Kf1 Rh6 18.Ke1 Rxh2 19.a4 Kd7 20.e4 Rh1+ 21.Bf1 fxe4 22.fxe4 exd4 23.cxd4
Qxd4 24.Rb3 Ke8
25.Bg5 a6 26.Qe2 Qxa4 27.Qf3 Qa5+ 28.Rc3 Nd4 29.Qg3 Rg1 30.Qxc7 Rxg5 31.Rxb6
Rc8 0-1

[Event "OHRA op"] [Site "Brussels"] [Date "1987.12.??"] [Round "3"] [White "Pein,Malcolm"] [Black "Boey,Josef"] [Result "0-1"] [Eco "D07"]
1.Nf3 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.c4 Bg4 4.Nc3 e6 5.Bf4 Bb4 6.Ne5 Nxe5 7.Bxe5 Bxc3+ 8.bxc3 f6
9.Bg3 Ne7 10.Rb1 b6 11.Qa4+ c6 12.e3 Bf5 13.Rc1 0-0 14.cxd5 b5 15.Qb3 exd5
16.Be2 Kh8
17.a4 a6 18.Ra1 Qd7 19.0-0 Be6 20.Qa3 Nf5 21.axb5 Nxg3 22.hxg3 cxb5 23.Qb4
Rfb8 24.Ra5 Bg4
25.Bxg4 Qxg4 26.Qd6 Qc8 27.Rc1 Ra7 28.Qxd5 Rc7 29.Rca1 Rxc3 30.Rxa6 b4
31.Qd6 Rc7 32.Rb1 b3
33.Kh2 b2 34.Rb6 Rxb6 35.Qxb6 Rb7 36.Qa6 Qb8 37.Qd3 h5 38.Kg1 Rb3 39.Qd2 Qb5
40.Kh2 Kg8
41.Qc2 f5 42.Qd2 Kf7 43.Qd1 Ke6 44.Qd2 g6 45.Qc2 Kf6 46.Kg1 Ke6 47.Qd2 Kd5
48.f3 Kd6
49.e4 Qb4 50.Qf4+ Kc6 51.d5+ Kb5 52.Qb8+ Kc4 53.Qc8+ Qc5+ 54.Qxc5+ Kxc5
55.d6 Kxd6 56.exf5 gxf5
57.Kf2 Kc5 58.Ke2 Kb4 59.Kd2 Ka3 60.Kc2 Ka2 0-1

[Event "Bundeswehr-ch"] [Site "Stetten"] [Date "1988.??.??"] [Round "3"] [White "Wisniewski,T"] [Black "Garweg,Udo"] [Result "0-1"] [Eco "A41"]
1.Nf3 Nc6 2.d4 d6 3.c4 Bg4 4.e4 e5 5.d5 Nd4 6.Be2 Nxe2 7.Qxe2 Be7 8.Nc3 Nf6
9.Be3 b6 10.0-0 0-0 11.b4 Nd7 12.h3 Bh5 13.g4 Bg6 14.Nh2 Bg5 15.f3 a5 16.a3
17.Nb5 Rfc8 18.Nc3 f6 19.Rfc1 Be8 20.Nf1 Nf8 21.b5 Ng6 22.Rc2 Bxe3+ 23.Nxe3
Nf4 24.Qf1 g6
25.Ne2 Bd7 26.Nxf4 exf4 27.Ng2 g5 28.Qd3 Kg7 29.Kf2 h5 30.Rh1 Rh8 31.Rcc1
Be8 32.Qd4 Bg6
33.Rcg1 Kf7 34.Ne1 Rh7 35.Kg2 Rah8 36.Nd3 Qe8 37.a4 Rh6 38.Nf2 R8h7 39.Qc3
Qh8 40.Qa1 Ke7
41.Nd3 hxg4 42.hxg4 Rh2+ 43.Rxh2 Rxh2+ 44.Kf1 Qh3+ 45.Ke1 Qxf3 0-1

Best wishes.
---------
If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.



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zaftro
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re:Is this opening good? - 2006/03/19 21:41 [snip]

Even so where's the problem? After 2...d5 this should end up in a Tchigorin
Defense (3.c4). And this shuold be playable at least up to ELO 2300 (ok, Moro plays it too, but that's a different story IMHO)
I don't differently think that one can raely critique 1...Nc6 as "weak".
While some may see it differently the point may be that somebody asking such a question may not intentionally even know what the Tchigorin is, and then - of course - you are right..
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nanite10
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re:Is this opening good? - 2006/03/19 22:49 Because after 2.d4 you have a problem what to do next.
Try to figure out yourself why the control for the centre was an illusion. Hint - the pieces location on the board is asymmetrical. Hint++ - white is one tempo ahead..
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