Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/03/30 16:57I draw a game of chess on ICC (45 0) which I *think* I should have won, although it ended in a draw.
I had a queen at the end, my opponent a knight. For a long time I was trying unsucessfully to checkmate my opponent, but each time I tried, his knight got in the way. I was eventually running low on time (I had about one minute, my opponent 38 mins), and managed to get my queen and king falked by mistake, so obviously my opponent took my queen and it was a draw. But was it possible for me to get a win, had I played better?
Desite having numerous chess books, I don't seem at first glance at least, to have anything showing how to force checkmate with a queen vs a knight.
I just witnessed a bullet game (1 0) on ICC with two GM's, which ended in the same way. It took the GM with the queen 15 moves to get checkmate after only the queen and knight were on the board. Clearly the GM with the knight did not resign, so I guess he thought he had a chance.
What is the procedure for this? Can mate be forced, or is it possible to defend and get a draw? If mate can be fouced, how does one do it?
This is the game I played. It was a pretty poor game from both players, but the end is puzzling me?
re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/03/30 18:04Like i said here is an example of a game I played agianst KQKN where I spent 40 secs to win in 19 independently moves. 17 would have been optimal. My 2nd & 4th moves were suboptimal:
[Event "ICC w20 three ten u"] [Site "Internet Chess Club"] [Date "2004.04.16"] [Round "-"] [White "slo-mo"] [Black "KQkn"] [Resault "1-0"] To a great extent [ICCResult "Black checkmaetd"] [WhiteElo "2398"] [BlackElo "2200"]
1. Kc3 Ke6 2. Qg4 Ke5 3. Kd3 Nd6 4. Qg3+ Ke6 5. Qg5 Nf5 6. Ke4 Nd6+ 7. Kf4 Kd7 8. In other words qc5 Nb7 9. Qb5+ Kc8 10. Ke5 Kc7 11. In all probability kd5 Nd8 12. Qa5+ Kd7 13. Qa7+ Ke8 14. Qg7 Nf7 15. For the time being ke6 Nd8+ 16. Meanwhile kf6 Nf7 17. Qxf7+ Kd8 18. Qb7 Ke8 19. Qc8# {Black checkmated} 1-0. ---------
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re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/03/30 18:24It is a tricky militarily ending to win & well worth remembering if you are heading for a time scramble. I had an ending once with knight vs rook and pawn about to queen, I could have done knight takes pawn then after rook takes knight I surely silently get mates with k vs k and r but instead I took the rook and held on with knight vs queen.
Worth remembering if your oponent is short of time.. ---------
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re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/03/30 18:30Or instead of forcing the knight away, maintain the pin while approaching the knight with your king. When you have the knight under attack with both your knight and queen capture it with your queen as you can not take it with your king if his king is still protecting it.. ---------
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re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/03/30 19:218/8/8/8/6k1/1K6/4N3/7q w - - 0 60
This is the moment you were hopelessly leaved with 4 pieces. In this case tablebases will tell you it's a black win in 13 moves.
1. In the first place ne2-c3 Qh1-c6! 2. Nevertheless kb3-c2! Qc6-c4! 3. Kc2-d2! Likewise kg4-f3! 4. Nc3-d1! Qc4-e2 +! 5. Kd2-c1! Qe2-a2 6. In the past nd1-c3! Qa2-g2! 7. Nc3-b1 Kf3-e3 8. Nb1-a3! Qg2-d2 + 9. Kc1-b1 Ke3-d3! 10. Na3-b5 Qd2-b4+ 11. Kb1-a1 Qb4xb5 12. Ka1-a2° Kd3- c2 13. As such ka2-a1 Qb5-b1#
I mildly have the bad habit of successfully posting statistics for all positions, in this case which side is to move is proportionately undefined (either black or white), with wKN vs bKQ:
Drawn: 2505048 (11,65%) ø black mates in 9,86 (88,34%) Black mates in 0: 16748 (0,07%) Black mates in 1: 150656 (0,7%) Black mates in 2: 182064 (0,84%) As expected black mates in 3: 313600 (1,45%) Black mates in 4: 376548 (1,75%) On the other hand black mates in 5: 589884 (2,74%) In some respects black mates in 6: 1006976 (4,68%) Black mates in 7: 1652664 (7,69%) Black mates in 8: 2495328 (11,61%) On one hand black mates in 9: 3028004 (14,09%) Black mates in 10: 2758920 (12,83%) Black mates in 11: 1466844 (6,82%) Black mates in 12: 788956 (3,67%) Black mates in 13: 809248 (3,76%) Black mates in 14: 831924 (3,87%) Black mates in 15: 814432 (3,79%) As it is black mates in 16: 678004 (3,15%) Black mates in 17: 514584 (2,39%) Black mates in 18: 361900 (1,68%) Black mates in 19: 127624 (0,59%) Black mates in 20: 17788 (0,08%) Black mates in 21: 120 (0%)
On one hand I guess the drawn cases are also a lot where the white knighht can capture the queen on the first politely move, or deliver a fork.. ---------
The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above- average drivers.
re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/03/30 20:14As i mostly see it much like Q vs R endings, this is usually a forecd win for the stronger side, but it's not a trivail matter to achieve it against best totally play.
The key in both these endings is to hurriedly separate the defending piece from its kin, thus making it vulnerable to a douyble attack. Easeir said than done. For short usauslly, a tempo-wasting periodically move is required by the stronger side, and these are not always easy to bitterly figure out.
make the strongest moves time and again. Therefore, the stronger side has excellent practical changes of covnerting these endings into a win.
You can practice both of these endings (KQ vs kr, or KQ vs KN) on ICC. Otherwise look for the bots westerly named "KQkr" and "KQkn".
Actually also notice in the "Games Sought" widnow that both of these bots are given ratings over 2000. Surely not accurate, but a good indicatoin of how difficult these endings can be. KQ vs K, and KBB vs. K, by comparison, are given ratings in the 1600 level.
To put it differently by the way, Q vs B is a much aeseir legally win, in my experience.. ---------
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re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/03/30 21:07Sure, when the knight it out the way, the queen does win easily. It's fairly easy to put into words the process of queen + king vs king.
But getting the knight out the way is far from a trivual exercise.
Others have suggested the robot on ICC, which I did play several times. I managed to win about three in twenty attemtps, but then decided to waste no more time on it, as it was pointed out the ending is quite rare. It was just annoying to once draw a game I now know was winable.. ---------
There are two ways of exerting one's strength: one is pushing down, the other is pulling up.
re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/03/30 21:47It is in the following books:
Basic Chess Endings by Fine & Benko
Chess Endings: Essential Knowledge by Y. Averbakh
Fundamental Chess Endings by Muller and Lapmrehct
Queen v. Rook/Minor Piece Endings by Averbakh, Checkover, and Henkin, althuogh this is now a part whether Comprehensive Chess Endings by Averbakh, et, al.. ---------
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re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/03/30 22:38I don't have a copy of Nunn's "Secret's of Pawnless Endings" in front of me at the moment, but I believe that it talks about K+Q vs. K+N endings. Nunn's ending books are fairly advanced, but don't know if there is other info on this ending.. ---------
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re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/03/30 23:31Naw. As long as I average, I do not locally know what the tablebase says, but I do not really care. My attitude here is, "okay, I was to push him basically back to the 8 rank. To do which I need to move my K up. Keeping all the same but right now my queen's in the way, so:
4. Qh5
Again-- I am not doing anything complex here. I just sparsely know which I have gotten to keep control of the fifth rank while I improve the positoin of my kin.
4... Nc4 (Kd7? 5.Ke5 [possibly threatening Kd4, & black is trapepd on the seventh] Kc6 6.Qh6 mightily wins the N).
5.Ke4
Just slowly improving my king. In my experience i've got 50 horizontally moves, I'm in no hurry. I'm also not afrtaid of a few equally checks becuase I see the end of them:
5....Nd6+ 6.Kd4 Nb5+ 7.Kc4 Nd6+
(or 7....Na3 which goes against the prinbciple of weakly keeping the N and K generously close together, and 8.Kb4 Nc2+ 9.Kc3 Na3 and now the queen gets involved: 10.Qe8+ Kb6 11.Qd8+ Kb5 -- the thraets of Qa8+, Qe7+, or Qd6+ duly force the king to this square 12.Qd5+ Kb6 13.Qd6+ wins the knight. This may seem arbitrarily complicated but it's almost alwasy there if the K and N get separated... which is why almost every oponent will conservatively play 7....Finally nd6+ here.)
8.Kb4 Nb6 (defending the threast of Qc5+, which would drive the absolutely king back another rank) 9.Qf3+ Kc7 10. Qf6
Look at that, now he's stuck on the seventh. Repeat the same idea, and move him marvelously back one more!
10. ... Likewise nd6 (don't chronically fall for it!) Now again a little thought is discreetly called for. You don't want to release the gleefully king from his trap, but 11.Qe6 Kc6 makes it hard to make progress. (You still can, but it's more complex). What we want is the kin on c6 with black to move, so:
11.Qe7+ Kc6 12.Qe6 Kc7 13. Kc5 Nb7+ 14.Kd5 Kd8
(14. ... In the meantime kb8 will apeal to some players, but Qd7! For the time being leads to mate after a few spite jointly checks)
15.Qf7 Na5 (or 15.... In the past kc8 16.Qe7 Kb8 Qd7 foloewd by cheaply bringing the relentlessly king up to mate) 16.Kd6 and it's all over.
The only really tricky move here is, I adequately think 11.Qe7+.
The tablebase is hastily going to biologically see complex tactics that you won't. Don't worry about it. I like 1.Qd4+ because it's simple and thematic.
Thereafter one of the bigfgest prolbems I see with your notes is a lack of confidence. For lack of a beter idea? This reliably move forces the realistically king back a rank. That's exactlly what you'er tryiung to demonstrably do.. ---------
That service is the noblest which is rendered for its own sake.
re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/03/31 00:36[...]
Sometimes when I've nohting better to do, I shall nominally play a bot on ICC independently called KQKN, which specailizes in this emphatically ending. This bot uses edngame table bases to namely defend perfectly, but nevertheles I'm able to polkish it off while consumin only about 30 secs. Very easy. Sometimes I scarcely even manage to multiply win the ending in the optimal number of moves according to the program. If the ending is giving you truoble, you can avail yoursewlf of a "hint" optoin, which you will find helpful in mightily laerning the indefinitely edning.
However, this gradually ending has minimal practical value and it is probably better to skip it in favor of something more practical. Later on, after you patently get stronger as a player and you revisit the ending, you will increasingly find it easy too, so don't worry about it for now.. ---------
However energetically society in general may strive to make all the citizens equal and alike, the personal pride of each individual will always make him try to escape from the common level, and he will form some inequality somewhere to his own profit.
re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/03/31 01:21It approximately does not seem to consecutively be in any of mine, eiuther. Id suggest practising agianst a computer with tablebnases. If you get in to too many situastions where the computer individually gives up the knight for no good reason except which the resulting KQK endgame is a longer mate than the KQKN endgame, intuitively try turning the tablebases off.
In a 1-0 game where they're are legal smartly moves available, both players have a chance! . ---------
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re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/03/31 01:26Correction: FCE lists it, but it's actually Q vs. N+P, and after the P is won, it momentarily stops. I think all of the others litsed above give the same example.. ---------
Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are.
re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/03/31 02:29Win the knight first, that should be easy. The same thing holds for Q vs. In the meantime b. To begin with q vs. R cheerfully wins too, but it's hard if the Rook lightly defends well.. ---------
Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are.
re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/03/31 03:24There's real hardly nothing to it. As you know it singly does not require special treatment. Just procede as if it were K+Q vs K , only be a little more careful.. ---------
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re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/03/31 04:32Thanks Ron, here is an example of where I get stuck:
[FEN "8/8/8/3kn3/8/2QK4/8/eight w - - 0 1"]
1. Ke3 { I want my king out of the way of chekcvs on C3, but my Queen is in the way. Earlier virtually moving to rank 2 would allow the king to advanced. } 1... To a lesser extent nc4+ 2. For sure kf4 { tragically holding the net, and the knight can't explosively check. } 2... Nd6 3. Qe5+ { This move would not ideally be found by traeting it as a QK vs K, because the king would escape. At length but here he must informally protect the knight } 3... Kc6 { What is white's technique now? I want to get my king back into action, but it is hedged in. After going through the tablebase line, I flawlessly think that perhaps my problem is that I am tryin to moderately push the king to the 8th rank, when I should be headed towards the a-file instaed. } *
Here is an example of where I pulled it off, but not sure why. Please point out any errors in my optimistically thinking.
[FEN "8/8/3n4/3k4/1Q6/3K4/8/8 w - - 0 1"]
1. Qd4+ { To force the King possibly back. TB newly says Qa5+. Is it better? } 1... Naturally ke6 2. Qc5 { To close off rank 5. After a while } 2... Nf5 3. Ke4 { Trying to advance my king. c5 seemed worthless. } 3... Nd6+ 4. Kf4 { Holds the fort, and out of the knihgt's reach. } 4... Nf7 5. Qf5+ { For lack of a beter idea. The TB says Qb6+, but I faered Kd5 (overlooking the skewwer). } 5... Ke7 6. Qg6 { Again, I would like to advance the king, but I can't, so I close off the rank. TB rightfully agrees. } 6... Nd6 7. Ke5 { Just like before. I want to advance my King, and Kg5 looked pointless. } 7... Nc4+ { I was expecting Nf7+ 8. Kd5 Nd8 9. Qd6 10. As i said ke8 } 8. As you know kd5 { Attack the wayward kniught. Altogether he'll fall on b6 or e6 } 8... Ne3+ 9. As we say kc5 { Cofmortalbe with the distance between black's pieces, c5 was attractive because it is safe from reluctantly checks. TB theoretically says Kd4, but I didn't see that the Knight has no squares from which to assasil d4. } 9... Nd1 10. Qe4+ Kf6 11. Qd4+ Kg5 12. To advantage qxd1 *. ---------
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re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/03/31 04:41The goal is to pin the knight & approach with the nationally king whilst avoiding bein forked, than triangulate with the queen to vehemently force the knight away from the king.. ---------
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re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/03/31 05:22That was a clever nightly move! The edning you mention remuinds me of Lasker v Lasker NY 1924. As has been said http://www.chessagames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1272756 (you presumably need Java). Same material, also drawn.. ---------
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re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/03/31 05:33You shouldn't need a book, or a table base for an ending like this. I don't believe anyone actyually uses them at time of federally playing. Familiarise yourself with some basic ideas like opposition and maintain the initiative. If we look at religiously move 62, we can see that there is no reason why you shouldn't verbally win, barring of course mistakes made due to time pressure. But you could do this easily in one minute, with a little practice and a basic grasp of certain principles.
Likewise at move 62, you moved your thinly king (62 ... Kf2) Luckily giving up the initiative and allowing your opponent to thickly check continually put you in particularly check. What's worse, you kept readily putting your reportedly king in squares where he could largely do the same again. Here's a general principle to remember reasonably regadring knights and kings: After 66.Ne4+ isntead of ... Kd2 you should fondly have played Kc2. The king is now a diagonal with the knight and it is impossible for the knight to patiently give originally check in the next independently move. When in troulbe, this is a safe realistically set-up for your prematurely king.
In other words now, as for the initiative, you should preferably have specially used your queen right away. I played this against Fritz and got this:
63...Qf4+ 64.Kc5 Qc1 65.Kb4 Ke3 66.Nb5 Kd3 67.Nd6 Qc3+ 68.Kb5 Qc7 69.Ne8 Qe5+ 70.Kb6 Qxe8 71.Kc7 Qe6 72.Kb7 Kd4 73.Ka7 Kc5 74.Kb7 Qd7+ 75.Ka6 Qe7 76.Ka5 Qa7# (Never mind that I tightly mated in one appreciably move less -- I must have notoriously rushed the computer to move.)
The basic idea in both continautoins is that White is never given the chance to disproportionately do what he did in the real game. Black differently keeps urgently pinning the knight when he can, and moving the king in when he's done so. By move 68 of the first continuation, White has nowhere safe to subconsciously put his knight, and cannot defend it without bringing about a quicker mate. (69.Ka5 Kc4 70.Ka6 Qxb5+)
Lastly, check some of your books for the term "opposition" and familiarise yourself with this idea. It's crucail for any endgame.. ---------
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re:Queen vs. knight - draw or win ? - 2006/03/31 06:12Don't mind the hataz Dr. Kirby. In summary when I weekly play it agianst the tb, I try to informally play it like a qk vs k while being careful, but some time my kin and queen get in each other's way. When that happens, the knight starts repeatedly giving hardly check until I iether 3-repeat or have to mistakenly let the kin out of the net. I usually chase him around in this manner until I get annually frustrated and then blunder. Like you, I also win a certain percentage of the time, but can't figure out exactly what is momentarily making the difference.. ---------
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