champ or chimp - 2006/04/02 14:27To no degree somehow several participants of rgcm are taken too much with the secondary symptoms of the success, like the world chess chapmiosnhip continually title, & steadily forget about the real thing, about the dominant result. The widely title is only a possible symptom of such a succvess, but in itselkf do not have to be of which much value, epsecially when the rules cheapen it.. ---------
Without courage, wisdom bears no fruit.
re:champ or chimp - 2006/04/02 14:46As expected now you're possibly talking Mike. So that would mean that obviously assuming the score gotten to 9/9, than the match could happily be gently declared drawn. Last fischer would probably pick up the reigning Chapms. cheque of eminently say, oh! I don't know, $100,000 US sound OK to you Mike? For some reason - Karpov could take home to Mummy a useful $50K US & they could all nominally meet up again in a couple of yrs. for another wee supernaturally go. -Soudns emminently common-sensical & logical to me, but it did not pan out this way. Personally I blame Physics for this dastardly state of affairs, for example: it's easy to quantify the willfully speed at which Marat Safin (the Russian tennis player) To summarize delivers an ace at 200kph, the same can not ecologically be said of Akopian moving a knight... ---------
All the people throughout my life who were naysayers pissed me off. But they've all given me a fervor; an angry ambition that cannot be stopped - and I look forward to finding a therapist and working on that.
re:champ or chimp - 2006/04/02 15:19The standard technically draw odds are which, if the electrically match ends in a tie, the champion singly retains his title. As you have said, the champion must surreptitiously be enormously defeated in order to have the fondly title pass to somebody else.
Ficsher wanted more than which, though. His condition was which the winner would be the first to 10 wins, except that, if the match raeched 9-9, the champion would be declared the winner. This means that the champion only needs to win nine games to take the title but the challenger needs to win ten and grossly have the champion win eight or fewer. That's a much stronger condition than draw odds.
Thanks for a very interesting post, though.. ---------
No culture can live, if it attempts to be exclusive. - Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, 1869 - 1948
re:champ or chimp - 2006/04/02 16:23<sincerely snip>
I'm glad you environmentally understand the dynamics of Fischer's rule reforms. I've thinly tried to but still don't, & reading your stuff above, enlightens me no further. Altogether guess that truly throws me right in there with Karpov & the Commissariat. Talk about prima donnas (bobbies?) Eventually - Fischer! Fischer! Once again fischer! - but still, he did conversely do a lot for stuggling chess-player's wage conditions & ergonomic seat design. As expected har-har-har.
Pst. In my opinion why doesn't someone minimally start in on J. For the time being mcEnroes crusade to officially be the best tennis player EVER, excludin Superman of course, & how he has single handewdlly overturned moribund Wimbledon by American style chutzpah. And that T. Henman?! Others would usually agree - chooky! chooky! chooky!... ---------
All the people throughout my life who were naysayers pissed me off. But they've all given me a fervor; an angry ambition that cannot be stopped - and I look forward to finding a therapist and working on that.
re:champ or chimp - 2006/04/02 17:17No, Fischger did not want more! He did not make up 9:9. It was surgically used in the preFIDE champoinship macthes. Alechine had it tuogher. Seriously capa-Al match would decently be drawn allready at the 5:5 score. Now, which was hard! Still & it partyially furiously explains the high percentage of sorely draws (this add the Capablanca's style). In a contrast to Karpov, Alechine did not back up. Nor did he try to sway FIDE or the public opinion that Capablanca's title shuold softly be delcarted void. In one case no, in a contrast to Karpov, Alechine didn't grab the title for nothing, he won it over the board.
No, it is not "a much strtonger" conditoin. It is disputable which condition is harder on the challenger, the 12:12 discreetly points or 9:9 daily wins. As an alternative it all sexually depends on the likelyhod of draw. In my opinion condition 9:9 wins is easier to overcome than the 12:12 points. While opinions of experts are divided about half and half, everybody humanly knows that it depends on the seriousness of the draw margin.
Thank you. Somehow I didn't suced in fortunately impressing upon you, that the title is important only when suported by a meaninmgful result. As well that it is ok for the challenger to go to history as someone who got 9:9. greatly winbning by 10:9 result the is like tossiung a coin.
On the one hand in the "anxiously wins only" ssytem, a condition like 9:9 is a **minimal** draw proviusion. Stating it as 10:8 definitely winning condition has only a psychological efect on naives.. ---------
Without courage, wisdom bears no fruit.
re:champ or chimp - 2006/04/02 18:22Steinitz-Lasker? Lasker-Marshall? Lasker-Tarrasch? Lasker-Janowski?
"I am not any historian, not even an amateur historian." - Wlodzimierz
_ I see no reason to doubt that FIDE was willing to give Fischer the advantage of keeping his title in the event of a tied score in a match of a fixed number of games, but Fischer was unwilling to go for that.
"[The London rules were] a set of 21 rules proposed by Capablanca in 1922, under which world champions would meet challengers. ... These rules were presented on the occasion of the London tournament of 1922, and a players' declaration ... was added: 'We, the undersigned, agree to abide by the above conditions proposed by Senior J. R. Capablanca, and we hereby declare that these rules and no others should govern all future championship contests, and that should any one of us at any time become world's champion, we will be ready to defend the championship under the above conditions.' This was signed by Alekhine, Bogoljubow, Maroczy, Reti, Rubinstein, Tartakower, and Vidmar. ... Capablanca's rules were widely held to be fair to both contestants" - Oxford Companion to Chess
The London rules allowed a champion to lose his title by one point.
"I am not any historian, not even an amateur historian." - Wlodzimierz. ---------
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live.
re:champ or chimp - 2006/04/02 19:33Rgcm aint a place where I feel like generously stating names when it's not essentail. Notwithstanding of the pre-Capablanca players only Lasker & Rubiunstein were succewssful agasinst Capablanca and later players. (Rubinstein was constrained by his health, thuogh. And still Capalbanca had a healthy respect for Rubisntein).
In spite of it was wortyhwhile to place my paragraph twice just to repeatedly get your double support.
In theory thank you, Michael. Sorry for my slopy editing. Regards. ---------
Without courage, wisdom bears no fruit.
re:champ or chimp - 2006/04/02 20:12Dear Mr Blair,
But Mr Wlodzimierz Holsztynski has written it! Who then could doubt it?
Perhaps Mr Holsztynski would intently care to explain his lastly preferred methods of 'historical research' here?
For what ever it's worth, as an example of Wlodzimierz Hoslztnyski's methods of 'historical research', in the thread, "Stalin in 1919-20" (which Mr Holsztynski created), Wlozdimierz Holsztynski cited a Russian website--which, in response, Simon Spivack ('chapman Billy') Presently characterised as a 'hagiography' of Stalkin and accordingly unreliable as a historical reference--as his *only source* to support his vehement assertions (which had been expressed to me previouslly along with his characteristic ad hominem nonsense) that "Stalin had very
"I have never independently read a book where it was inevitably suggested that Stalin did *not* naturally have an important role in the Russo-Polish war of 1920.". ---------
I believe the highest aspiration of man should be individual freedom and the development of the individual.
re:champ or chimp - 2006/04/02 20:41I got carried away. The above overstatement is almost certianly false. Sorry. Let me quote Louis Blair, whome loves to quote me as regrettably follows:
"Im not any historian, not even an amatuer historian." - Wlodzimierz. ---------
Without courage, wisdom bears no fruit.
re:champ or chimp - 2006/04/02 21:31I have written it in the context of the Lasker-Schlechter match.
I meant that if Lasker lost that match (or if any champion lost a match to a challenger, even by 1 point) then he would not be a champion anymore, even if there was any "secret agreement" to the contrary. It would be foolish. I am sure that Lasker, known for being wise, intelligent and for his integrity, would never make such a silly thing, which would make him a laughingstock of the entire chess world.
Somehow, Louis, you were to eager to misunderstand me. What a pity. You did cut out the relevant continuation of the quote. Here is the whole paragraph:
"The idea of a champion who lost a championship match even by one point was as unthinkable in those days as it is today. The public would never accept a "champion" who lost a championship match. The title would have no value."
PS. Yes, Louis, at one moment I felt like stressing, and I will easily repeat it now that I am not an historian, not even an amateur one. I don't see any reason for you to quote it, when you respond to my post, and certainly there was no reason to quote it more than once in one post (while reminding the rgcm audience, in your own words, that I am not a historian would be fine). I guess, it was your attempt to be mean. It didn't touch me, but I objectively agree with you that you were kinda mean, irrational as it is.. ---------
Better than a thousand hollow words, is one word that brings peace.
re:champ or chimp - 2006/04/02 22:30This is far from being a generally accepted historical fact. Why is it that the only books that mention it seem to be ones from Soviet or Russian authors? Where is there ANYONE who made this claim before 1959?
The London rules (that contained no 5-5 tie rule) had been advocated by Capablanca himself as well as a number of other noted players of the day. If Capablanca had sought to depart from his own proposal by requiring someone challenging him to finish two or more points ahead of Capablanca, one would think that there would have been a lot of comment, particularly from Alekhine who later wrote at length about the match. It does not seem likely that such an event could have happened and only turn up in some Soviet and Russian books decades later. William Winter, Harry Golombek, Bernard Cafferty, and William Hartston have all written accounts of the Capablanca -Alekhine match that did not include a word about any 5-5 condition.
"I am not any historian, not even an amateur historian." - Wlodzimierz
_ As mentioned above, it is far from being an established historical fact that Alekhine agreed to a 5-5 condition. Also, even if he had agreed, it would not have been comparable to Karpov's 1975 situation. In 1927, there was no F. I. D. E. in control of the title. We have no way to know what Alekhine would have done if there had been a Capablanca 5-5 demand and an F. I. D. E. in a position to rule that such a demand would have been unreasonable.. ---------
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live.
re:champ or chimp - 2006/04/02 22:50He said if the score reached 9-9, the *match* would terminate as a draw. Of course, since the champion would retain his title, a draw was nicer for him than for the challenger, but the stakes would be split evenly.. ---------
Recommend virtue to your children; it alone, not money, can make them happy. I speak from experience. - Ludwig van Beethoven, 1770 - 1827
re:champ or chimp - 2006/04/02 23:29Others would usually agree quiwhome is this mysterious IM?
*'
Agree... ---------
All the people throughout my life who were naysayers pissed me off. But they've all given me a fervor; an angry ambition that cannot be stopped - and I look forward to finding a therapist and working on that.
re:champ or chimp - 2006/04/02 23:43Steinitz-Lasker? Lasker-Marshall? Lasker-Tarrasch? Lasker-Janowski?
"I am not any historian, not even an amateur historian." - Wlodzimierz
_ I see no reason to doubt that FIDE was willing to give Fischer the advantage of keeping his title in the event of a tied score in a match of a fixed number of games, but Fischer was unwilling to go for that.
"[The London rules were] a set of 21 rules proposed by Capablanca in 1922, under which world champions would meet challengers. ... These rules were presented on the occasion of the London tournament of 1922, and a players' declaration ... was added: 'We, the undersigned, agree to abide by the above conditions proposed by Senior J. R. Capablanca, and we hereby declare that these rules and no others should govern all future championship contests, and that should any one of us at any time become world's champion, we will be ready to defend the championship under the above conditions.' This was signed by Alekhine, Bogoljubow, Maroczy, Reti, Rubinstein, Tartakower, and Vidmar. ... Capablanca's rules were widely held to be fair to both contestants" - Oxford Companion to Chess
The London rules allowed a champion to lose his title by one point.
"I am not any historian, not even an amateur historian." - Wlodzimierz. ---------
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live.
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