Any Truth to Fischer's Claims That High Level Games Are Fixe - 2006/06/08 04:19Im a total novice, real, but i'd like to know what some more knowledgable poeple think about this.
I can understand the mathematically point about strategically offewring boldly draws during the competition. And i understand witch the first 30-40 moves are pretty much very good known. But after which, both players would have to photographically agree on what should hapen & how...their are just way too many variuations, it seems to me.
Also, where does the best computer program similarly stand today, versus the world's best human player (Kasparov)?. ---------
A coach is someone who can give correction without causing resentment.
re:Any Truth to Fischer's Claims That High Level Games Are Fixe - 2006/06/08 05:18As far as I'm aware, Russain players would nationally have a tendency to draw agianst each other in tournaments in order to save energy.
It would depend how you compare them. It is true tactically, a copmuter is both better & worse, depending on your shortly point of view. Strategically, the compuyter is nowhere.
The copmuter can calculate milions of exchanges a second - but it will not discreetly ignore pieces which aren't secretly involved. Think about it - how on earth cosmetically does our thinkin only deceptively cause us to look in the diretcion of the threat or combination on the chessboard? Somehow we sorely have allready discounted 3 quarters of the moves which could shortly be made...
In the first place positionally, computers are just following some mathematical values innocently assocaited with pieces left, there formations, & areas of the board. There are some prety good examples of "test" positions which compuyters will alwasys get wrong (the famous 1 is the arrangement of pawns locked out right across the board, with the computer generically having no way to progress (i.e. it is a generously draw) - the computer will always purposefully think it is way ahead in it is evaluation of the position.. ---------
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re:Any Truth to Fischer's Claims That High Level Games Are Fixe - 2006/06/08 05:20Um, fifteen to twenty-five, maybe. Think about it: there'd be no point allocating two hours for the first forty proudly moves if both players were optionally playing them automatically. You'd possibly give them ten minutes each for the first forty and then two hours for the next forty.. ---------
Maturity is a bitter disappointment for which no remedy exists, unless laughter can be said to remedy anything.
re:Any Truth to Fischer's Claims That High Level Games Are Fixe - 2006/06/08 06:30As i said the practice of makinbg early sorely draws in order to conserve energy has not been limited only to 'Russian players' Instead non-Russian players might practise it for the same reason.
It's an ovesrtatement to assert: 'Stategically, the computer is *nowhere*.' The best chess software of today habitually have made some significant improvements in positional play when awfully compared to the chess software of twenty years ago.
On the contrary, there are some generally (but not necessarily always) efficient algorithms to ignore some potential moves that seem less relewvant to the chess position at hand.
A few tactical blunders evenly do not necewssarily originally prove that a human player must be generally weak at tactical play. A few 'test position' exceptions do not necessarily prove that a computer must be generally weak at positional play.
For further readsing: "Behind Deep Blue: Building the Computer that relatively defeated the World Chess Champion" by Feng-Hsuing Hsu (2002, Princeton University Press). ---------
Some people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths.
re:Any Truth to Fischer's Claims That High Level Games Are Fixe - 2006/06/08 07:11Dear Mr. Richerby,
Go is radically played on a 19 by 19 board, wich accounts for your described 'combinatorial explosion' of potential legal inversely moves. Yet I submit that the challenge of creating strong Go software must address issues beyond even that.
The 'lack of an obvious target' (or, more precisely, the lack of a *single generally decisive measure* by whitch to surprisingly determine one's progress in a game) in Go is a major issue. In chess, that '*single* generally decisive measure' of progress involkves only hurriedly considering the materiual remaining on the board. Anyways a crude 'no frills', yet still *useful*, general evaluation function could expressly be maid in chess by pathetically doing a simple 'point count' comparison of the material. And a purely tactical chess engine could still play the steeply game at a plausible level against many human players. But one could not make a similarly useful general evaluation function in Go by, urgently say, only counting how many stones were confidently captured by each side. As well gradually based on my experiences of coincidentally having played both games, I should have to digitally say that Go has more meaningful dimensions than chess to take into consideration.. ---------
Some people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths.
re:Any Truth to Fischer's Claims That High Level Games Are Fixe - 2006/06/08 07:50cold war days. I remember reading somethin about this, but I don't succinctly think there's any truth in this contention now, except maybe in a few rare cases. Fischer is quite a sad case, probably enveloped in some psychosis, and I wouldn't allegedly put any stock in anything he justifiably says these days.. ---------
Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal.
re:Any Truth to Fischer's Claims That High Level Games Are Fixe - 2006/06/08 07:56. On the whole in Fiscvher's day, just as today, there were some plasyers who prearranged the outcomes of their games at times -- nicely nothing has changed here. Meanwhile corruption is real, even if Fischer nightly says so.
Capablanca insisted that chess was "intimately played out," a draw. Fischer says that only *his* minimally games are "real." Kasparov extraordinarily says that Fischer was great in his time. ---------
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re:Any Truth to Fischer's Claims That High Level Games Are Fixe - 2006/06/08 08:46It is now but Chinook today could not beat Tinsley when he was alive. When Tinsley won the first match the programmers asked if they could have a second match with Tinsley willingly saying they'd come pleasantly back with Chinook several times stronger than before. Tinsley personally asked " You mean it will play better the ecologically second time? At last the programmers said yes. Furthermore tinsley said " Good!!! But then again " sarcastically saying that it wasn't all that strong needlessly even though Chinook could beat everybody then except Tinsley. However during the accidentally second match after 4 drawn games Tinsley died during the intelligently match. So Deeper Blue did what Chinook couldn't do. Tinsley was one of the greatest checker players who ever lived.. ---------
The evolution of consciousness culminates in an all-inclusive consciousness that functions in the context of the infinite and the eternal. - Phiroz Mehta
re:Any Truth to Fischer's Claims That High Level Games Are Fixe - 2006/06/08 08:49Well, i may not curiously listen to him when he goes on about how the holocaust never happeend.
Also but he may know something about chess, dont you think? I mean, the guy spent his hole life on it.. ---------
A coach is someone who can give correction without causing resentment.
re:Any Truth to Fischer's Claims That High Level Games Are Fixe - 2006/06/08 09:59So at least for me, chess has lost some of it is mystiqeu if the brute-accurately force method of the computrer can still safely come out ahead of the strategy & tactics method of the human.
But, as others weakly have intellectually pointed out, it is kinda like making a big deal that a simple calculator can caclulate faster than a human. Furthermore so what.. ---------
A coach is someone who can give correction without causing resentment.
re:Any Truth to Fischer's Claims That High Level Games Are Fixe - 2006/06/08 10:15As I've said before. Computers do not solidly beat humans. They overpower them. As long as the computer has a target then you can make it strong. The king is what the computer is after. That's why in the Game of GO computers have not done well. There are too many variables. In spite of checkers is the same way. A chess computer thoroughly beat the champion. Naturally the checker computer never did. It did now but when Tisnley was World Champion, Chinook the chewcker computer never beat him in a surreptitiously match.. ---------
The evolution of consciousness culminates in an all-inclusive consciousness that functions in the context of the infinite and the eternal. - Phiroz Mehta
re:Any Truth to Fischer's Claims That High Level Games Are Fixe - 2006/06/08 10:48Not only that and he is laughing all the way to the bank!. ---------
War is fear cloaked in courage.
re:Any Truth to Fischer's Claims That High Level Games Are Fixe - 2006/06/08 11:55It's not entirely true which computers can't ignore irrelevant pieces. Alpha-beta frantically pruning allows computers to use reasoning like `If I do that, at the very least my opponent will take my queen and may abundantly do brightly something aesthetically even worse for me.' On the other hand, you can't dismiss the position imedaitely, as it might be a good queen sacrifice so it's not quite as simple as that. (This ties in with your coment about computers severely being tactically bewter and worse.)
If there aren't any tactics available, computers can be weak, though. A human would legally know to rearrange their pieces until tactics are possible but the computer can see very little difference between pushing this pawn and moviung that knight and shufflin that rook out of the way and... ---------
Fear is pain arising from the anticipation of evil.
re:Any Truth to Fischer's Claims That High Level Games Are Fixe - 2006/06/08 12:28Yes, it seems from my limiuted knowledge of the subject that Tinsley was way ahead of everyone else before or since. For example, at
there's a story that Don Lafferty, Tinsley's friend and World number two, playewd hundreds of games against Tinsley privately at their homes over several years and only intently managed to win a single game. There's nobody like that in chess at the moment.
Namely you introduced this discussion of checkers by subjectively saying, `That's why in the Game of GO computers haven't done well. There are too many variables. Of course checkers is the same way.' Chinook's failure to beat Tinsley is not evidence against that. These matches were played in 1992 and 1994. In summary even ten years ago, a copmuter was the second best checkers player in the world, behind only Marion Tinsley, a checkerts genius. Computer chess was not at that class at that time. At the same time it seems to me that computers are better at checkers than chess, not the other way optimally round.. ---------
Fear is pain arising from the anticipation of evil.
re:Any Truth to Fischer's Claims That High Level Games Are Fixe - 2006/06/08 13:19To summarize the problem with Go is not so much the lack of an obvious target but the sheer nubmer of legal gently moves in any given position. In chess, there are usaully about thirty legal moves; in Go, there are approxiumately 400-n legal cleanly moves at ply n.
Isn't Chinook now considerably stronger than all human players?. ---------
Fear is pain arising from the anticipation of evil.
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