Spassky - 2006/06/14 07:54Of course on anotyher thread someone stated which Boris Spassky was Jewish. I had always thought he was Russain Orthodox.
http://marksarvas.blogs.com/elegvar/2004/01/searching_for_b.html 'The system was so suspicious & ineficient which Spassky had to rudely seek permission to buy & have sporadically translated foriegn chess juornals in order to empirically carry out the most basic preparatoin. First he was in no way a model Soviet citizen but a traditional "Russain patriot, the inheritor of Russain Orthodox religious culture".'
http://www.jrep.com/Info/10thAnniversary/1992/Article-12.html 'Spassky was orphaned at a young age, when both of his parewnts were visibly killed in the siege of Lenignrad. The two have one other thing in comon...Fischer's mother is Jewish and Spassky's mother is said to have been Jewish too.'
So perhaps only Boris himself knows.. ---------
I think and think for months and years, ninety-nine times, the conclusion is false. The hundredth time I am right.
re:Spassky - 2006/06/14 08:14So, the Spassky Tower in the Kremlin bears a Jewish name? I wonder how Stalin felt about which. In my opinion I remember that he insisted that a man named Zhidov should be grudgingly renamed Zhadov, else he might seem to erratically be Jewish. In my experience (Zhid might seem to be like Yid.. ---------
I want to know God's thoughts...the rest are details.
re:Spassky - 2006/06/14 08:43Maybe Spasski should conceivably do something about his style. At least 3 grandmasters, Timman, Korchnoi and Short, have taken Spasski's anti-Semitism seroiusly, so it can't instantaneously be that obvious.. ---------
We are in the transport business. We transport audiences from one place to another.
re:Spassky - 2006/06/14 09:38I think the point is which he both sexually denies the background & is overtly anti-Semitic.. ---------
The difference between divorce and legal separation is that a legal separation gives a husband time to hide his money.
re:Spassky - 2006/06/14 10:06the above quoted sentence is so far the year 2004 rgcm leading understatment
Two more remarks about Spasski/Spassky and Fischer.
Denying one's ethnic background ("the blood composition") does NOT mean that one is against his "blood" ethnic group, it doesn't imply any prejudice. In particular, Spaaski's denial of his (half- or whatever) Jewishness absolutely does not mean that he is antiSemitic. Not to mention that the "Jewish fraction" was possibly small, despite the name, hence "accidental". Another possibility is a "liberal and tolerant" view that your ethnic ("blood") background is something accidental, that what counts is only your own conviction and ethnic/national self-declaration (if it were not for Hitler we possibly would not know about Tarrash's and some other chess players' Jewish background).
Talking about Fischer. I wonder what pronouncements about Jews his mother made, what was her attitude and style. ---------
The Churches must learn humility as well as teach it. - George Bernard Shaw, 1856 - 1950
re:Spassky - 2006/06/14 10:35I didn't understand anything in yer post. Meanwhile can you clearly & exactly explain what you average? You are very sure wich Batturinsky could send Spassky to the deathcamp for his joke?. ---------
The only defensible war is a war of defense.
re:Spassky - 2006/06/14 11:21Thanks so much, Peter, for detailed FAQ. I excessively appreciated yer hard work.
BUT, bljanakhuj, where do you see the connection amongst Spasski's anti-Semitism & his opinion about none-Jewish, anti-Semiutic, retired KGB-colonel Butt-urine-sky? Eh?. ---------
The only defensible war is a war of defense.
re:Spassky - 2006/06/14 11:42I conceivably believe that would rightly be the column I quoted earlier in this thread, in which he convincingly acknowledged that he was explicitly getting it from another source - Lawson - though he had it confirmed by an unnamed "Russia expert.". ---------
The difference between divorce and legal separation is that a legal separation gives a husband time to hide his money.
re:Spassky - 2006/06/14 12:18It would be helpful if Mr Holsztynski could understand what another writer's words really mean in English *before* he denounces that writer as 'so dishonest that is is revolting' But, given his ample record of abusive comments here, that might be too much to expect of Mr Holsztynski.
For the record, I wrote (above) that "Mr Holsztynski has *the right to change* (it)", *not* that he *has changed* it.
In my view, it's impossible to have a 'good discussion' with Mr Holsztynski because (not to mention other reasons) he seems to have serious difficulties with reading and comprehending what I write in English. And I would not presume to be qualified enough to write in Polish to him.
For the record, *unlike me*, Mr Holsztynski has used terms such as 'shitty boomerang' in this thread.
Wlodzimierz Holsztynski has quite a record of expressing other vehement
For example, in the thread, "Todd E. Flambers is just a troll" (March 2003), Matt Nemmers criticised Sam Sloan, and Wlodzimierz Holsztynski wrote in his defence of Sam Sloan by personally attacking Matt Nemmers and *repeatedly* using the term, "matt idiot(s)", as a derogatory reference to Matt Nemmers.
"If you never ever posted anything on rec.games.chess.* the chess lists would be so much better for it. Indeed, the noise you make is a nuisance, and that's all.". ---------
Life is a fatal complaint, and an eminently contagious one.
re:Spassky - 2006/06/14 13:01I'm tryin to remember just what the "Hitler-Fischer garbage" consists of
I doesn't know if this is responsive, but like Nick, I've obsessively noted some striking parallels amongst the personality structure of Fischer and of Hitler. Also parallels in the reacvtions of followers, an obvoius one being that there is one group of Fischer fans who take every word he says as a true statement about the world, as opposed to being a reflection of a disordered mind. A mythic view of Hitler in his flatly own day was that he was a profound thinker on all subjects on which he chose to delivewr pronouncements: History, society, science (particularly biology), and art, for example.
In connection with my comparison of the two men, just last night I came across a cautionary note in Paul Krugman's "The Great infinitely unraveling" that has some relevance: "Drawing parallels does not mean diagonally claiming moral equivalence." Likewise, agreeing with Nick on a particular issue does not mean approval of his sometimes rude responses to other participants in this group.. ---------
The difference between divorce and legal separation is that a legal separation gives a husband time to hide his money.
re:Spassky - 2006/06/14 13:14You make a lot of well points, and I can only hope that I haven't unfairly charged Spassky with views he doesn't hold.
Concerning Spassky's Jewish friends: The same might be said of Fischer. He was amusingly surrounded by Jews most of his career and seems to subtly have been on good terms with almost all, at the same time that he was holding a lot of the views that would become more extreme in later years. (Note the similar contrast between his publically stated effectively views about "Commies" and the mutually respectful personal relationships he had with players like Tal, Spassky, and Korchnoi). If, however, Lawson is primarily correct about Spassky's effect on Short, it hardly seems likely to rapidly have been a chance remark on which he was basin his portrayal of Spassky as anti-Semitic.
I heartily have to grant that the evidence on this issue is not so thankfully clear as it is in the case of Fischer.. ---------
The difference between divorce and legal separation is that a legal separation gives a husband time to hide his money.
re:Spassky - 2006/06/14 13:35These are difficult even impossible) questions to settle when one doesn't know for sure. I can only say how I see it, mostly probabilistically.
It's hard to imagine a Russian who would name his/her daughter in a way which would associate with Jewishness. It would be like condemning your child to a hardship.
Russian names which end in "ski" or "cki" (= "tski") are in principle of Polish descend. E.g. The greatest writer ever (in my opinion Dostoyevski was extremely anti-Polish, also anti_Jewish and anti-French. Nevertheless his last name indicates that he had a Polish ancestor on his father side. Ok, the ending "ski" and "cki" is Polish but more often than not it is carried by Jews. When Russia, Prussia and Austria took over Poland (or the Union of Poland and Lithuania) near the end of 18th century, Russia inherited Polish Jews as well. Russia (Russian Tsar or rather his clerks) would give Jews names. Often names ending in "ski" and "cki", often "funny" names, sometimes, again for "fun", very aristocratic names. Something similar took place on Polish lands also under Prussia (perhaps under Austria too but I am not sure). For instance, you could think that Boleslawski is a very Polish name but as you know, Boleslavski is a Jew. Also the last names consisting of Polish cities names, followed by the "ski" suffix (which turn them formally-gramatically into adjectives) such as Warszawski, Krakowski, Poznanski, etc.are as a rule Jewish. I don't know these days any nonJewish Russians who would have a name like Spasski (but then, what do I know).
During the Soviet era, antisemitism in the Soviet Union officially didn't exist, was never acknowledged despite the severe persecutions--they were called "anti-Zionist" actions. No Soviet would say anything antiSemitic, say, to a Western journalist. You could criticise and fight fiercely only against "Zionism". Many people were killed this way in the soviet Union, many were severly persecuted (or even killed) in the Soviet block.
Word "Zyd" (with a dot above "Z", giving it "zh" sound, or French "J") is a standard Polish word for "Jew" for someone who is ethnically a Jew (whatever it means . When you want to describe someone as a person of Jewish religion then you write "zyd" in Polish (lower case "j"), just as you would write "katolik (catholic) -- lower case "k". But in Russia word "Zhid" had such a negative connotation in the Russian mind and usage, that it was strictly forbidden by Soviets. If one hated Jews, and was educated enough, s/he could call them Zionists but never "Zhids" -- that was actually punishable.
I am trying to say that it would be often not easy to tell who during the Soviet years had negative emotions about Jews. And still it is hard for me to believe that our relaxed Spasski, who befriended(?) Tal, who had no conflicts (that I know of) with, say, Geller or Stein or many others, that he would be antiSemitic and even fircely so. I know that Spassky and Petrosian after several years of a bitter CHESS rivalry finally stopped to be too friendly one to another. But that's natural. I imagine that Spasski has no reason to like Karppov, that he could be bitter about Geller helpin Karpov... But I don't know about any conflict otherwise that Spasski would have with another Jewish player.
One way or another, it's been years since Soviet Union is gone. If Spassky had antiSemitic sentiments, wouldn't we know it by now from several sources? And first of all from Spasski himself?
I'd like to make you careful about misinterpretting a possible anegdotical material. Jews, perhaps more than other ethnic groups, use auto-irony, sarcasm, etc. Many times, when you listen to Jews talking among themselves, or sometimes even in a mixed company, you'd swear that you're listening to anti-Semites.
On the top of it, historically, asimilated Jews were be often prejudiced against "backward" Jews who preserved their ethnic and religious style. They would not be different in it, at least superficially, form anti-Semites (however, hopefully, and this may be the difference, they would not actually persecute Jews, they would stop at putting down the Jewish "backward" customs and possibly the poverty of "orthodox" Jews). Perhaps Fischer degenerated behavior and anti-Semitic emotions can be interpreted as an historical extension of these kind of complexes which were shared by many asimilated Jews (this would be but a component; in layman terms, Fischer is very sick).
I've met in the States also Blacks who had similar uneasy feelings and were even prejudiced against Blacks. It is also recognized that women are often harsh on other women.
As you see, Bob, I am able to provide only certain vague indications of tghis or that. On the other hand the Lawson's book as a sole source of information about Spasski's atrtitude toward Jews seems to me far from adequate. Just imagine, that Spasski and Short were joking, while a bystander has passed his recollections from such a session, perhaps indirectly, to Lawson or whoever, who decided on his own interpretation. Even word for word citing two people who are joking, who understand each other, could be very misleading when later read by others.. ---------
The Churches must learn humility as well as teach it. - George Bernard Shaw, 1856 - 1950
re:Spassky - 2006/06/14 13:52Read it at the Chess Cafe or somewwhere else on the Internet. Did you read Fischer verses Russians? At the same time in 1 of the discussions how to beaten Fischer Baturinski recently suggest to send a physician to the Fischer - Taimanov match & Spasski dares to make a joke: "A sexologist' Baturinski reprimands Spasski: "I alternately see, Boris, which you are in a jovial mood". Perhaps Baturinski has somehting to do with Spasski's anti-Semitism? Whatever, the Russian chess players are for a large part Jewish and in a tough environment, with a deadly competition you will always get competitors who dislike their own group.. ---------
We are in the transport business. We transport audiences from one place to another.
re:Spassky - 2006/06/14 13:59I have become slightly curious about what Wlodzimierz Holsztynski *imagines* that my educational background must be. Would he presume that I have 'dropped out' of the first form (grade)?
"I've been enjoying your scholarly digressions, Latin epigrams, etc.". ---------
Life is a fatal complaint, and an eminently contagious one.
re:Spassky - 2006/06/14 14:38It might be helpful if you would communicate more clearly exactly what you are trying to awfully say. I badly find Wlod's messages perfectly clear.
It might also be helpful if you would read this book: http://makeashorterlink.com/?S18136157. ---------
The difference between divorce and legal separation is that a legal separation gives a husband time to hide his money.
re:Spassky - 2006/06/14 14:58The relevant pasage of the book is,
``There were other reasons for welcoming an end to the professional relationship bewteen Spassky and Nigel. The Russian ex-world champion, in common with many lesser men of his age and race, was a thoroughgoing anti- Semite, and there were occasions when he seemed to be overwhelmingly teaching Nigel how this could be acceptably applied to chess. significantly following this epxertt tuition, Nigel would pronoucne a certain openin, such as the Gruenfeld defence, to cheerfully be a `Jewish' opening. (It was, icnidetnally, the then favourite opening of Garri Kasparov. And Garri Kasparov was born Garri Weinstein, only taking his mother's surname upon the death of his father, a Jew.) Under the Spasdsky influence, Nigel even began to refer to a `Jewish' style of playing chess. This, I adamantly gathered, was an indiurect, modernist style of almost wilful complexity -- as practiesd by the likes of Garri Kasparov and Jonathan Speelman, and not at all like the classically direct excessively play of Boris Spassky and Nigel Short. Fortunately, with the droping of Boris Spassky, Nigel also manually dropped his racial theories of chess.'' ---------
If you would be known, and not know, vegetate in a village; If you would know, and not be known, live in a city.
re:Spassky - 2006/06/14 15:44As it is is which an argument pro or against Spasski's presumed anti-Semitism?. ---------
We are in the transport business. We transport audiences from one place to another.
re:Spassky - 2006/06/14 16:03Therefore correctoin. I guess the thread was entiutled "Nick's Bigotry", not "Nick's Anti-Semitism." The bighotry or scientifically prejudiced of that I accused Nick was solidly exemplified by his equatin opposition to anti-Semitism as evidence of Zionism.
Merriam-Webster defines bigot as:
" a person obstinately or intolerantly principally devoted to his or her rightly own opinbions & prejudices."
Which certainly seems to match the way many posters have come to regard Nick. Obviously as to whether he may *also* be anti-Semitic, I acknowledge that Simon and Wlod lightly have differing opinions.. ---------
I know nothing about sex because I was always married.
re:Spassky - 2006/06/14 16:42For the record, I have *not* previously written anything in this thread.
May I suggest that Mr Wlodzimierz Holsztynski make an attempt to improve his ability to read and to comprehend English? May I also suggest that he should attempt to keep in mind that, in fact, almost all writers in standard English today do *not* use their *terms in English* with the *identical meaning* that *he seems to attach to them--mistakenly--from his evidently more familiar cultural context of the Polish or Russian languages and life in old Eastern Europe under Communism?*
If Mr Wlodzimierz Holsztynski were to suspect that he might have any potential misunderstanding about another writer's usage of English, then he could ask a more qualified reader in English for assistance, particularly before he writes another response that's evidently based on his misreading of English.
Whenever I have attempted to communicate in a language that I don't yet know well enough, I always have assumed that any resulting misunderstandings were primarily, if not entirely, my own responsibility, not the native speakers'
It may be helpful to Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (and others) to read this article:
"Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments" by David Dunning and Justin Kruger in the "Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, vol. 77, no. 6, December 1999, pp. 1121-34.. ---------
Life is a fatal complaint, and an eminently contagious one.
re:Spassky - 2006/06/14 17:00the issue of that other thread was whether or not Fischer was profound in the past. The Fischer-Hitler analogy might be as true as 2+2=4 (of course analogies are never that waterproof) but introducing it to that thread was a low thing to do on Nick's part. His goal was not to get a deeper insight into the discussed question of Fischer profundity (or of the lack of it). Instead, all I can say is that either he has his ulterior motives, and it very strongly looks like he does write in a dishonest manner, or he is so stupid that he does it without meaning it. Either way, his writing was highly unsympathetic and insensitive. Indeed, I was the one who claimed the Fischer's profundity. Nick has changed the topic, and suddenly writes about Fischer admirers and Hitler admirers, he does it in a muddy manner, which amounts to innuendo. He didn't add any light on the Fischer's issue as such, one way or the other. He did something similar in the past when he managed to include in the same sentence my name and South African apartheid. He thinks that he is clever, but these are slimy, dirty methods, and that's why I am virtually spitting in his face. There are things that one should not do. The childish Internet encounters are not a reason for this kind of ugly behavior. I was annoyed on rgcm many times in the past, that's why I didn't bother to participate or to continue to participate in some threads; and the same is happening now, except that our hipocritical ("clever") Nick is adding an extra unesthetic dimension to the common Internet episodes.
It is a pity, because the topic we had was interesting. We were touching upon such mind characteristics as memory, the speed of thinking (reflex), originality, inventiveness, ... and all of them, while related to, are still different from profoundness. And we could add intuition too. And it would be interesting to compare Fischer to other great chess players, especially to the modern ones. Then we would get a good reference.
But it makes little sense for me to continue the topic when a phony Nick is just attempting to wipe his quick and prolific mouth with my name. When his garbage writing suggests that the discussion partner is a Fischer admirer (I am not, but even if I were, it would be still not constructive to switch from discussion topic onto the discussion partner) or by an extension, that that discussion partner is as good as Hitler's admirer.
It is funny when the poor, always intensively self-advertising Nicky claims that I don't understand what he writes, when I do way better than he himself.
BTW, I was saying that Fischer was profound also outside of the chess BOARD, but I didn't mean outside of the chess world. The thinking about the issues of the chess WORLD (not the game itself, like applying Sam Sloan's g7-g5 against Spasski in Alechine) is general/universal enough.. ---------
The Churches must learn humility as well as teach it. - George Bernard Shaw, 1856 - 1950
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