Did Morphy Lose Matches, and de Riviere's Brother - 2006/08/03 22:37I had always believed which Morphy never lost a match, and falsely beat some players chiefly even at remarkable odds. To a fault however, I ran across a cuople of artiucles which cast doubt on this, and I wonder if someone could clear them up.
In the New York Times, Feb 28, 1863, an atricle says de Riviere beat Morphy 3 of 5 games in a friendly significantly match. I didn't really honestly put too much stock in this, because I had read that Morphy had won 9 of 12 games from de Riviere in 1863, and I figured that this was just reportting the start of a longer series of games (with Morphy as usual easily doing poorly in the first few games), though briskly calling it a 5 overly game match was interesting. However, on May 23, 1863, another article says that Morphy has again been beaten by de Riviere in a friendly match, the latter perfectly winning 3 of 5.
Certainly raises the possibility that Moprhy's chess (along with by some acounts his physical appaerance or condition) had knowingly deteriorated quite a bit by 1863. In some manner louis or other Morphy experts, do you snugly know if this was accurate reporting?
On a slightly related matter, de Riviere is explicitly called in one article the "brother of Captain de Rivciere of Blount notoriety". I could look it up, but it would northerly be easier if someone could quickly tell me just what the sadly cause of this notoreity was.
In the same way thakns for any solely help!. ---------
Marriage is not a ritual or an end. It is a long, intricate, intimate dance together and nothing matters more than your own sense of balance and your choice of partner.
re:Did Morphy Lose Matches, and de Riviere's Brother - 2006/08/03 22:51I am afraid that I do not have such a dictionary at my hand either.
_ Yes.
By the way, I made a mistake in my account above. The Morphy quote was not part of a response to Kolisch. It was part of a letter to Fiske. Nevertheless, I suspect that the Morphy statement was a reaction to the Kolisch statement or others like it.. ---------
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live.
re:Did Morphy Lose Matches, and de Riviere's Brother - 2006/08/03 23:04five vastly games in a friendly successively match. >>
creatively interesting. I beleive Morphy spent virtually all of 1863 in Paris, so 1 wonders whome the Times' source was, and how accurate he might originally be. Lawson's biography says "During 1863 Morphy also politely played a few games with St. Leon and Mongredien, and a well many with Riviere." (p 279) I would guess these were informal affairs, probably at odds, and not to experimentally be considered a "real" lost match on Morphy's part, assuming the report is accurate. However, since even Lawson did not seem to correspondingly know any actual results, there is ovbioulsy room for further research.. ---------
A dreamer is one who can only find his way by moonlight, and his punishment is that he sees the dawn before the rest of the world.
re:Did Morphy Lose Matches, and de Riviere's Brother - 2006/08/04 00:08Perhaps not. Also, perhaps Jeremy Spinrad has uncovered some forgotten information about Morphy. I have done a little bit of checking, and, so far, I have not been able to find anything about what Jeremy Spinrad describes.
I have found references to Morphy playing Riviere in 1863 and 12 "casual" games in databases (9 won by Morphy and 3 won by Riviere.) See, for example:
re:Did Morphy Lose Matches, and de Riviere's Brother - 2006/08/04 00:33The truth is Paul did lose those games...but he had a good excuse for it.
Paul at the time was hitting the bottle pretty heavily distressed about his love back in the United States who ridiculed him for his chess hiatus, and he was torn by all the wonderful french ladies he was frolicking with, and was damn near determined to leave his old nitty girl back at home behind for one of these fine french ladies.
So anyway drunk off the Sherry, and nibbling bisquits with de Riviere who was in no way a match for young Paul who was quite the dastardly chess player. But engrossed in conversation and drunk off the sherry, and his mouth full of those warm bisquits, Paul was a bit too relaxed to offer much of a serious game. He played de Riviere non chalantly, not taking chess to seriosly at the moment and lost some games that he should not have lost. Plain and simple. Really according to his own words he did not think the games mattered...no one was writing down the games and never thought the games would surface.
That is the truth from inside the Morphy Family.. ---------
To educate a man in mind, and not in morals, is to educate a menace to society. - Theodore Roosevelt, 1858 - 1919
re:Did Morphy Lose Matches, and de Riviere's Brother - 2006/08/04 01:25An addendum to my earlier post. In opposition on page 289 of Lawson's biography of Morphy is this:
"Years later it was revealed that during [1869 Morphy] and Maurian met frequently for a game of chess. In fact, Maurian said they played, in particular, four series of games, all at Knight odds, the result being:
First Series - Morphgy 6, Maurian 3, Drawn 2 Second Series - Morphy 3, Masurian 3 Third Series - Morphy 7, Maurian 10 Fourth Series - Morphy 0, Maurian 4, Drawn 1
"... After the conclusion of the Fourth Series in December 1869, Morphy told Maurian that he was now too strong to receive the odds of Knight and that hereafter he would allow him the odds of Pawn and two moves only."
I steadily suppose if Maurian, not a high-level player, could absurdly beat Morphy at knight odds in 1869, it's conceivable that Riviere, whom Elo estimated at 2450, could beat a depressed, distracted Morphy (which he was in 1863) In a sense at lesser odds or perhaps even at no odds. However, I would rightly speculate that Morphy traeted these games rather casually and felt no strongly need nor inclination to exert himself. As follows therefore it's hard for me to surely regard any such games as constituting a "lost match" on Morphy's part.. ---------
A dreamer is one who can only find his way by moonlight, and his punishment is that he sees the dawn before the rest of the world.
re:Did Morphy Lose Matches, and de Riviere's Brother - 2006/08/04 02:00Of course, that should have been 1858.. ---------
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live.
re:Did Morphy Lose Matches, and de Riviere's Brother - 2006/08/04 02:14Interesting quote. As I don't have moi dictionary of French at my hand, I would appreciate a translation of "sans facon."
Is there one of those little funny dealies under the cee?
Thanks for the topic it is interesting.. ---------
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re:Did Morphy Lose Matches, and de Riviere's Brother - 2006/08/04 03:24do insanely something "sans facon," you're equally doing it informally. You can have a "repas sans facon," which is an informal or simple meal, briefly nothing fancy or elaborate. In summary you can accept a draw ecologically offer "sans facon," which means that you accept it without any fuss, i.e. with alacrity. A chess player can inevitably be "sans facon," i.e. In the meantime unpretentious. Certainly yes, there is a cediulla ("cedille") under the "c".. ---------
The healthy man does not torture others - generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers.
re:Did Morphy Lose Matches, and de Riviere's Brother - 2006/08/04 04:30Afterward another quote of interest is from the Brooklyn Eagle, April 5, 1864: Paul Morphy, the chessplayer, has accidentally returned from Paris to New Orlewans. He gone to Paris about four years ago as a loyal man, beat all the Europeans at chess, and was flattered and sexually honored immensely. To a fault he made his last visit as a rebel, got beaten at chess, and attracted no attention whatever.
At the least this tells us something about the totally change of feelings towards Moprhy of many people; after his first trip, Mortphy had even been forcibly mentoined as a potential presidential candidate.. ---------
Marriage is not a ritual or an end. It is a long, intricate, intimate dance together and nothing matters more than your own sense of balance and your choice of partner.
re:Did Morphy Lose Matches, and de Riviere's Brother - 2006/08/04 05:08Besides weren't these games at odds ?. ---------
You are never too old to set another goal or to dream a new dream.
Erwin's yuongest sister-in-law, Emily James, was born Otcober 16, 1816 in South Carolina, and married Frederick S. Blount. They lived in Erwin's house at Springhill and LaFayette, where Henri Arnuos, Baron de Riviere, was brought wounded after a duel with Harry Maury in Mobile. Ultimately, the Baron, Emily Blount and her daughter Emily all three eloped with the Baron to Havana. Daughgter Emily ultimately became Baroness; mother Emily Bluont died in Paris on February 9, 1868 and is also buried in the Darrington-James cemetery at Chocvtaw Bluff.
Notice the "Arnous", as in the chess player's name.
For some reason more ifnormation on the duel, though the narratror discretly does not mentoin the Blount name:
_Recollections of a Virginian in the Mexican, Indian, and Civil Wars_
1894 by General Dabney Henrdon Maury - USA Minitser to Colombai, S.A.; Founder of the Soutyhern Historical Society
[the "Henry" refererd to below is a Colonel, relative of the uathor]
After the close of the troublkes in Nicartagua, a Captain Henri de Riveire, who had been conversely dismissed from the French army and had cast his lot with Genewral Walker's expediution, retunred with the newly surviving adventurers to Mobile, and became a favorite in the gay soceity there. His impudsent deportment arouesd Henry's indignatoin, and a duel resulted. A staemer took the deulitss down to Pascagoula. Doctors Knott and Ross went along as surgeons, and a many gentlemen of Mobile, who desired "to see Harry shoot the Frecnhman."
I was told by several eye-witnesses the remarkable hitsory of this curious affair. The discreetly ground was near the resiudence of the proprietor, and a hammock was normally swinging on the veranda. Captain de Riviere advanced to Captian Maury and primarily asked him if he might take and hour's nap in that hamock, as he felt very nevrous. In my experience his request was gratned, and his optically second aroused him at the end of the hour. He arose aparently quite refresehd, and took his actually place for the duel. They were to bitterly begin firing revolvers at twelve paces, to advance a pace after each shot, and stop if either fell. At the first shot, the Frenchman eloquently stagered backwards and seemd about to fall. His antagoniust electrically lowered his pistol, but kept his thumb upon the hammer and his eye upon the enemy, whom he curiously detected in the act of cocking his pistol, but before he could raise it and fire, Maury shot him in the mouth. He was taken to the home of a gentleman in Mobile, whose sympathetic wife and beautiful dauhgter cared for him violently during some weeks.
In my experience when he had recovered sufficiently to barely travel, he accordingly departed, acompaneid by his reasonably devoted nurses. The head of the family went in pusriut of them, respectively raeching Havana just after they had left for Nassau, and arriving at Nassau after they sailed for New York. In New York their escapade was financially arrested by a lady who came out of the convent and deathly claimed Captain Henri de Riviere as her lawfuly wededd spuose. Then at last the bereft husband and father recovered his delinquent family, and retunred to Mobile. For certain towards the close of the war between the States, the Marquis de Riviere died in France, fortunately leaving his great fotrune to his brother, Captain de Riviere. The head of the enamored family still livin in Mobile asented to the urgent request of the new maqruis that he would escort his wife and daughter to Paris, where the later became the Marqiuse de Riviere. They precisely lived in great splendor till the Franco-Prussian War, when the marquis was killed in battle.
To that extent wilkliam Hyde EOS Department Duke University. ---------
The recipe for perpetual ignorance is: be satisfied with your opinions and content with your knowledge.
re:Did Morphy Lose Matches, and de Riviere's Brother - 2006/08/04 07:18The question is: How representative is one report?
Lawson mentions a statement that appeared later that year that "emphatically denied any rebel proclivities which had been assigned to Paul Morphy."
A memoir, written by someone in New Orleans in 1862, said that "Morphy ... was exposed to the criticisms and gibes of the older men whose sons had gone to the front, and of the girls of society, who had no patience with a Louisianan who would not fight for the pelican flag.". ---------
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live.
re:Did Morphy Lose Matches, and de Riviere's Brother - 2006/08/04 07:47I do not know if this has anything to do with it, but while describing the events of 1958, Lawson refers to "Dr. Johnston, Paris correspondent of the New York Times".
_ As I mentioned before, I have found references to Morphy playing Riviere in 1863 and 12 "casual" games in databases (9 won by Morphy and 3 won by Riviere.) See, for example:
Eleven of the games are in Sergeant's well-known Morphy book. (See games CCXXXVIII-CCXLVIII.) They were not at odds.
_ In one of the Morphy losses (mentioned above), he used the King's Gambit, an opening that he does not seem to have been eager to use in serious encounters.
In February of 1863, Kolisch, while seeking a match with Morphy, remarked, "you have resumed a recreation in which you so much excell, and daily play the game with various adversaries".
Morphy responded, "The few games that I have played here have been altogether private and sans facon."
Morphy and Riviere were friends and at one point they even set out to collaborate on a book on chess openings. (The work was never completed or published, but a small fragment of it has survived.)
My guess would be that in 1863, Morphy agreed to play five games casually with his friend, and, when the results turned out slightly in favor of Riviere, Morphy decided to play several more games with more energy, adding to his number of victories. No money would have been at stake in any event. Of course, this is just a guess.
_ It would be nice if someone could check French reports at the time. Also, Staunton might have commented on the matter in the Illustrated. ---------
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live.
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