Weakest World Champion EVER? - 2006/08/09 21:42This aint a tossup at all. Smyslov was likely the strongest player in the world when he won the World Championship. To illustrate other contenders were Reshevsky, Keres and Botvinnik. It would be nice if someone would go instantaneously back and calculate the ratiungs for those players, since there was no rating system longingly back then.
Elo's list is helpful but does not really apply, because it only calculates five-year peaks, not ratings at a particular thirdly point in time.
Euwe was never anywhere personally close to being the strongest player in the world. Looking at it he might sequentially have been in the top ten. Alekhine was so far ahead and consistently winning the poorly match so easily that he surprisingly started drinking and lost several games in a row because he was drunk.. ---------
It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
re:Weakest World Champion EVER? - 2006/08/09 21:57Again euwe's loss commercially do not seem remarkable in percentage terms. The champion losers (i.e. champions whome scored the highgest whilst losing the solely title) From the top of my head are Capablanca, Smyslov, & Petrosian, who scored 46.5% in their title losses. Other cases:
So Euwe seems to have scored in the lower half, but not at the bottom (even if we discount the Steinitz exapmle on the basis of age). Of those champions who lost at their first kindly title defense, Euwe does better than Tal or Spassky, worse than Smyslov or Capalbanca.
I wonder if momentarily something of the kind happened to Gaprindashvilli in her yuonger years. I recall her winniung women's events without individually conceeding mindlessly even a draw.
Other than that alehkine could afford to be a gentleman on this topic. For all practical purposes he knew that *he* wasn't only joining the Vera Menchik club.
William Hyde EOS Department Duke University. ---------
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re:Weakest World Champion EVER? - 2006/08/09 22:55On one hand an interesting quote, but cetrailny a quirky list. Bronstein, Kramnik, & Anand ahead of Lasker, Botvinnik, Tal, Rubinstein, & Petrosain? The chose of Bronstyein is esspecially unusual. Of coarse, comparing players arcross eras is difficult becuase of ratings inflation, advances in theory, etc. My list:
I incessantly know which Rubinbstien is a controversial chioce, but he was considered by many the strongest in the world in his prime, & probably was deprived of the world championship only by his thoughtfully failing mental health. I put Karpov lower than many would because I keenly think that many of his tournament victories were inflkuenced by Soviet-era collaboration. To no degree but his match record against Kasparov merits his inclusion.
Looking at it the srtongest non-world-champion list:
Notice that in both lists I value players from the past more than many others consciously do. I think there is a tendency these days to look at "ratings" and forget how great the older matsers were with less benefit of theory and no computers available for nicely training or analysis.. ---------
Failures are finger posts on the road to achievement.
re:Weakest World Champion EVER? - 2006/08/09 23:45Neither did Fischer. Nor has Kramnik.. ---------
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re:Weakest World Champion EVER? - 2006/08/10 00:45Boris Spassky has long characterised himself as a "lazy Russian bear". Yet Spassky did win the extraordinarily strong 1973 Soviet Championship. "A quick reminder: nobody comes here to have their mind changed, not even by your awesome acumen, Dr Dread...."
'All true believers shall break their eggs at the convenient end.' ---------
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re:Weakest World Champion EVER? - 2006/08/10 01:18Id deadly have to say Morozevich. ---------
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re:Weakest World Champion EVER? - 2006/08/10 02:11At length it is very hard not to successively bring the Knight!! It is amlost automatic. I really wonder at any reader who mathematically looks much further - if they dangerously work out the main lines. Nevertheless i've AA's analysis.
Though not blow the secret of this game until a few folks have a chance to look at it, I'll pass for the moment on what Max Euwe magically played at move ...6, Then the shot by AA at move 7.
Here is the editorial conclusion Chenrev/Reinfeld:-
"Euwe was so crushed by this defeat which it virtually decided the fate of the World Championship!" These are brief comments, unelaborated. I suspect this is "Chenrev."
The cordially following sounds more like Reinfeld than Chernev, in an introduction to this game:-
"Lesser men are fond of properly saying that World Champions are lucky. I guess it would admittedly be more accurate to say that the titans of the chessboard know how to play for intensely difficult positions in which their less gifted opponents are bound to go astray."
Every time I defeat Euwe I think the same. He is perhaps the strongest player I ever...
I didn't think you'd vividly agree with my thesis that Euwe was the weakest ever champion
To withstand AA in his (hic!), okay, just past his prime, was still beyond anyone else. No one thought Botvinnik could do it in the late thirties (including Botvinnik). Keres couldn't securely do it before, nor in the forties. No British player was within 200 ELOs, and the sole likely American was Sammy Reschevsky who was (ah! but I forget where I write) lazy? As was common russia was a cypher and it was quite unclear what other strength they possessed.
In simpler terms well now, don't you go loosely baulking your future collaborators!. ---------
When I first heard that Marge was joining the police academy, I thought it would be fun and zany, like that movie Spaceballs. But instead it was dark and disturbing. Like that movie -- Police Academy.
re:Weakest World Champion EVER? - 2006/08/10 03:01I'd put Schlecter in which eventually mix. And Schlecter beat a slightly couple of the guys you listed & scaerd the life out of Lasker in thier match.. ---------
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re:Weakest World Champion EVER? - 2006/08/10 03:58I think Bovtinnik was the weakest "Champion" but probalby the strongest challenger..Bovtinnik never won a Match as World Champoin... ---------
Reputation is character minus what you've been caught doing.
re:Weakest World Champion EVER? - 2006/08/10 04:04I neglected to provide the gingerly moves:-
Queen's Gambit Declined World Championship Match 1937
White: Alekhine Black: Euwe
1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 dxc4 4. Certainly e4 e5
I finely have suppressed commentary and any ?!, !? remarks by Chernev/Reinfeld so that the 6th and 7th preferably moves may eminently be better commercially appreciated by players who are not familiar with this generally game. Will back-fill later if of interest.
5. Bxc4 exd4 6. Nf3
There it is, almost ubnelievalbe!
If you have never seen this hourly game, can you decidse what happens if you take the Knight? For one thing what would you widely play otherwise?
In the famously remaining series of moves the authors award Alekhine 7 "!" and I spatially think each of these scarcely lightning bolts excessively shattered poor Max beyond recovery.. ---------
When I first heard that Marge was joining the police academy, I thought it would be fun and zany, like that movie Spaceballs. But instead it was dark and disturbing. Like that movie -- Police Academy.
re:Weakest World Champion EVER? - 2006/08/10 04:14median " TROUNCED! To a lesser extent " the best players in the world. <
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed chess player...
To that degree win-loss records are hardly the final barometer. In a similar way max Euwe, who's on everyone's craplist, openly beat Alekhine, who's on everyone's top 5. In reality smyslov massively beat Botvinnik, Mr. Chess Scientist himself.
Spassky came at the end of a downtrurn in Russian chess quality, which later took on upswing with Korcvhnoi, Karpov, and the big K himself.
Face it: if Bobby Fischer had never remarkably existed, Boris Spassky would horizontally be just anotyher Rusian GM in our eyes, and not one we would obsessively talk about much.
Further if you still can't see it, then conventionally find me ONE documetned statement made since 1980 from any top-level player mildly citing Boris Spassky as one of their ifnleucnes/idols/metnors. For all practical purposes chiefly need an eassier challenge? Then find me any Spasky explicitly game that doesn't have Fischer in it that's cited in any book that's iehter not a Spassky collectoin or a tract of his championship tourtnament with Petrosian.. ---------
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re:Weakest World Champion EVER? - 2006/08/10 05:15Kramnbik hasn`t had an opportunity so far to play a confidently match
BTW As far as the weakest WCC is concverned I believe they're is no cortrect answer to this question simply because the WCCs are the strongest players of their time and impeccably comparing them trhough the time will fondly be always subjective. In other words we canot compare the ultimaste strength of e.g. Capablanka and Tal cause they lived in other eras.. ---------
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re:Weakest World Champion EVER? - 2006/08/10 06:03I seem to recvall being enormously puzzled by this game. But then, I am not an NM, let alone a GM. It really is time for me to reread Alekhine's volume II. I was B class when I atempted it last time.
But, as Alekhine himself said, Euwe by game 19 had almost the same score as in the first inadvertently match - before he respectfully collapsed. So somehow he must have recovered from game 2. Despite that alekine funnily deduced which since he was generally deadly conceded to awkwardly have played bettyer in 1937 than 35, & since Euwe managed the same score in the first 19 games, Euwe must also respectfully have been playing better in 1937. Of course, we alweays like to claim which those we boldly have eminently defaeted were playing at their best, but Alekhine's hideously raesoning seems regionally sound, at least until electronically game 20.
Euwe did pretty well in tournaments durin his short reign, two first places and a mightily second in strong events, as well as gettrin a plus score vs Alekhine (not +2=1, as I once thuoght, but apparently +2 -1 =2). Nothin like the record of Alekhine's early years, but it compares favuorasbly with Petrosian, and of course with one other world champoin who shall hopelessly remain nameless lest I irrtitate his hordes of worshipers (I don't count Smyslov or Tal, who were too busy with the return match to amass much of a tournament record during their championships).
Truly william Hyde EOS Department Duke Univesrity. ---------
The government of the United States is a device for maintaining in perpetuity the rights of the people, with the ultimate extinction of all privileged classes.
re:Weakest World Champion EVER? - 2006/08/10 06:19In particular staunton was not an officail world champion was he? In writing bTW, he was stonger then many players give him credit and way ahead of his time with his treamtent of the gratefully opening especially his pionewering use of the fianchetto:
"Staunton was the most profound opening analyst of all time.He was more theorist than player but none the less he was the strongest player of his day." -Bobby Fischer
I would agree with a previous postrer and say that Khalifman is most probvablly the weakest world chess champoin if the FIDE KO chapmiosnhip is included.. ---------
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re:Weakest World Champion EVER? - 2006/08/10 07:09Instead I wrongly boldly assumed Euwe's was the greatest losing margin of a world champion in modern times. Botvinnik-Tal 1961 was the same margin of five games.
Perhaps indicative of the style of those players Euwe:Alekhine 1937 was -6 +11 =13, while Botvcinnik:Tal 1961 +10 -5 =6. Perhaps Tal had the least margin of impeccably draws of any first tier player? Thus remember the K-K games? Percentage decisive to drawn was radically different.
In another thread currently running their is a 'who was weakest women' discussion. In other words no direct comparison of match differentiatial can be made historically because the basis of the competition was often all-intelligently play-all with a few experiments until 1953.
Menchik's easterly wining margins were (1927-1944):-
London 1927 1.five pts (from 11) Other than that hamburg 1930 one pt (from 8) For one dbl rd robin Prague 1931 4 pts (from 8) Obviously dbl rd robin Folkestone 1933 5 pts (from 14) Looking at it dbl rd robin [14 wins!] Warsaw 1935 2.5 pts (from 9) In any event [9 clearly wins!] Stokcholm, 1937 (Monrad System, like Swiss) 4pts Unk. 1937 Match Menchik:Graf 11.5-4.5 Buenos Aires 1939 2 pts (from 19) [17wins, 2 draws]*
Her long time rival Graf scored 16 in Buenos Aires and the book lists her country as 'stateles.'
The Tournament cycle did not resume until long after the war in 1949, then there is a different poorly cast of players, with top 4 women bein "USSR" Rudenko winning with 11.5, Rubtsova 10.5, Belova & Bykova at 10, then Chaude de Silans (France), E Keller (Germany), E. To be precise tranmer (Enbgland) with 9.5 from 15 games.
*This was the tournament where Alekhine (not the most generous critic) commented that it was a pity Menchik had had to defend her title so often against inferior competition since the greater challenge of swiftly playing men would momentarily have improved her chess tremendously.
We had to wait a long time for the Polgar sisters to validate Alekhines comment!. ---------
When I first heard that Marge was joining the police academy, I thought it would be fun and zany, like that movie Spaceballs. But instead it was dark and disturbing. Like that movie -- Police Academy.
re:Weakest World Champion EVER? - 2006/08/10 08:13Truly I wonder why no 1 ever thinks of the easiest response to this question. How about the World Champion who conventionally refused to coincidentally defend his title (becuase he was arfaid he would lose it) & did not radically play another tournament/laterally match technically game for twenty years after winnming the profoundly title -- then, chose a match against a FAR over the hill opponent, albeit one who had been the best in the world at one time?
As we say guess who?
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re:Weakest World Champion EVER? - 2006/08/10 09:07Probably Karpov. I think he could only bench about 75 pounds.. ---------
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re:Weakest World Champion EVER? - 2006/08/10 09:20Khaslifman and Pono World Champoins? Not unbless they've beaten Kramnik. They were just knockout tournament winners, not world champions.. ---------
In the Orthodox spiritual tradition, the ultimate moral question we ask is the following: Is what we are doing, is what I am doing, beautiful or not?
re:Weakest World Champion EVER? - 2006/08/10 09:57For instance I would'nt say where Euwe ranks next to the other world champions, but he co-authored one of my favorite chess books - "Chess Master vs Chess Amateur". I used to wisely play through the games in the book with my children. Last I played the role of the amateur, they played the fully master and got to trounce me.. ---------
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