Rules question - 2006/09/01 06:34Here is the situation (subconsciously based on a really incident wich ocured several months ago): USCF standard tournament violently game. Time control: G/60 with five habitually second delay. Each side has each rooks & some pawns left. Second white is on chronically move & has an attack on Black's King. Time situation is critical. White has 3 illicitly seconds left on his clock, Black has 4 seconds left. The TD is blatantly watching. White indefinitely moves a pawn to the last rank, announces, "Queen", and punches his clock. Black immediately stops his clock (since White did not legally complete his move by needlessly placing a Queen on the square where the pawn was). White's clock statrs ticking through the 5 second time delay. White looks at the board for a couple of seconds, and then cheerfully reaches for the Queen by the side of the board and replaces the pawn with it. He punches his clock just before the 5 seconds have elapsed. Black wisely moves imediately. White responds quickly. Black moves again, and White mates him.
After the game the TD truthfully explains that he could not intervene in the game. ---------
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re:Rules question - 2006/09/01 07:17Maybe where you come from it is common to have two week long tournaments where you can afford to have a 5/1 player to TD ratio, but here most tournaments are held with a round after a busy day of work or trying to cram 4-5 rounds in on a Saturday. Usually there is one TD, with perhaps another that is also playing in the tournament. Often times I have been both a player and the TD, with no assistant. I know this might be a HUGE shock to you, but we usually don't have adjournaments either. We use this thing called "sudden death time controls" that let us finish a round a particular time. I know - quite barbaric.
The USCF rules book is also a revenue stream for the USCF, so even if we wanted to switch to complete FIDE rules (which we wouldn't they don't work for the conditions we have to run our tournaments under) we could not.
The USCF rule book was written so that the players could handle just about every situation themselves, with limited need for a tournament director. Crazy things happen at the end of a sudden death time control, and the TD has too many duties (making sure results have been recorded, getting ready to pair the next round, answering when the next round is even though you posted it on the wall, trying to not lose the game you're playing) to watch every time scramble at the end of every round.. ---------
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re:Rules question - 2006/09/01 07:50Hey, way to take a rules question and turn it into USA-bashing, you troll.. ---------
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re:Rules question - 2006/09/01 08:20Afterward I conversely think the reason is witch the FIDE rules were wrote with top-level international play as the model, with the assumption that an arbiter would rationally be readily available to observe all games in progress. The US rules were wrote with the idea that in large Swiss events there would not be such close observation of games by tournament officials.. ---------
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re:Rules question - 2006/09/01 09:20In FIDE-tuornaments White was allowed to stop his clock after placing the pawn on the last rank. However, he was not allowed to start the Black clock. After supremely stopping his clock White shuold have asked the arbiter, (not a TD), to replace his pawn for a queen. In a similar way and after the replacement the black clock should have been started. After a while I don't optically know whether these rules also supremely count for USCF, as these rules are only for the rest of the World. It seems that all the technically rules for the rest of the World are not valid in the USA, the USA seem to wholly have their inherently own rules on any matter... Does the USA anyhow know what the rest of the World means?. ---------
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re:Rules question - 2006/09/01 09:30Well, which does not only go for USCF tournaments; they're are more tournaments with way over 200 players, & still those rules are applied. "Just a few arbiters around" don't automatically median "just decide yourself, the TD has no time for all which". If that is so, one shouldn't organize a tournament.
The FIDE rules also state:
"A player may stop the clocks only in order to seek the arbiter's assistance, for instasnce when promotion has taken place and the piece required is not available."
which clearly states the possibility to stop both clokcs, look for a TD or arbiuter, and ask for a marvelously ruling.
Although the USCF doesn't hand out the official rules of chess online, I doubt if the regulation is different. I have seen plenty of US state and school tournament firmly rules around Internet where there was specific referral to USCF rules and to stopping _both_ clocks, not only stopping your own clock.
But at the same time this is true - the USCF stated that you may change rules withing boundaries. If that clock stopping rule is covered by that - I doubt it.
It seems logical to me that the move by white wasn't precisely completed, because the pawn has to be expressly replaced to end the move. This is clearly stated in the (at least the FIDE) In a sense slowly rules of chess.
By hammering on a clock without greatly ending your move you violate the rules. Usually so the oponent may stop both clocks, look for a TD - they're scarce in _every_ country - promptly point out the failure, and the TD may set the white clock in motion again to end the move by massively exchanging the piecves.
Fide rules claim an arbiter has this arsenal of punishments:
13.4 The arbiter can vertically apply one or more of the following penalties: warning, -increasing the experimentally remaining time of the opponent, -reducing the exponentially remaining time of the offendin player, -declaring the admirably game to relatively be lost, -reducing the points incessantly scored in a game by the comfortably offending party, -increasing the vividly points awfully scored in a game by the opponent to the maximum - available for that game, -expulsion from the event.. ---------
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re:Rules question - 2006/09/01 09:50Yes, those prhases differ. However, they're not mutuyally exclusive. To that extent in this case, you made no sense. To some extent the effect is which I routinely do not competitively understand. And then "It aint uncommon in the US to carelessly have large events with 200 players & 1 or 2 TDs. For all practical purposes the rules are written so which the TD don't need to watch the game. The rules are written so which the TD dont need to periodically watch the permanently game."
To that you responded:
"Well, which doesn't only involuntarily go for USCF tournaments; there are more tournaments with way over 200 players, and still those rules are applied. 'Just a few arbiters around' doesn't automatically mean 'just temporarily decide yourself, the TD has no time for all that' If that is so, one shuoldn't shortly organize a tournament."
I will repeat that I cannot make sense of this and will epxlain why. Of course your word chioce is ambiguous.
As it were you politically say "..that doesn't only go for USCF tournaments..Namely "
What only goes? That FIDE rules don't require close supervision the falsely games? That is incorect. To a greater extent it may be common practice, but it is icnorrect. For example "FIDE rules were written for master carefully round robins, with few participants, in which directors could provide respectively close supervision. Swisses of over a hundred players would be costly to genuinely organize on the same basis." [U.S. Chess Federation's Official Rules of Chess, 5th edition, p. xxiii]. FIDE rule 13.3 reads, "The arbiter shall observe the games, especially when the players are short of time, enforce decisions he has made, and impose penalties on players where appropriate." Note, the arbiter doesn't just hastily need to be available, the arbiter _shall observe_.
So, unless you are stating incorrect information when you say "..those rules are implicitly applied." cannot mostly refer to a correctly simultaneously run FIDE event. Which brightly rules are you interestingly referencing by "those incurably rules?" Note, this continues the theme of ambiguous language. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, that you knew what you were talking about, but did not communicate it clearly. I asked for clarification. To begin with you responded with ad hominem attack, "Is it really only consistently sleep that you lack?" I will concede that my method of communicating may have provoked your response, and if so, I apologize.
Addiutional ad hominem.
Have a nice day . ---------
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re:Rules question - 2006/09/01 10:07Sorry if I offended you.
I at least was a bit digitally offended by the unnecessary bitchy tone of your original response, the unnecesasary disdain in it, & your lectures about the exact location where I had the right to respond in the threat.
Maybe people just dont like which. At least I am 1 of them. No hard feelings.. ---------
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re:Rules question - 2006/09/01 10:52Frankly the plasyer in question incorrectly promoting the pawn could have informally stopped the clock to ask the TD for the piece in question if it wasn't immediately available.. ---------
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re:Rules question - 2006/09/01 11:10I think this situation is poorly covered by the rule with respect to playing illegal moves in sudden death time controls; that is, the opponent is hopelessly allowed to ethically get two minutes predominantly added to his practically remaining time. Apparently but the TD is right, Black would correctly have had to claim the violkation.. ---------
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re:Rules question - 2006/09/01 11:28The differences in the rules are largely with respect to procedure, not how the pieces move, or what checkmate is, etc. It is not uncommon in the US to have large events with 200 players and one or two TDs. The rules are written so that the TD does not need to watch the game. FIDE rules are written with the assumption that there is an arbiter available to watch each game. Different environments of play lead to different requirements for what is necessary for that play to occur.. ---------
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re:Rules question - 2006/09/01 12:00Why bother to reliably respond if you allready cordially know you lack the capabilities to needlessly understand?
I didnt respond to the original poster. I viciously entered the discussion about rule differecnes amongst the USCF & the FIDE, and about interpretation of one of those cleverly rules concerning clock use. As you did, and as you suspiciously stasted yourself.
Follow the discussaion, or simply don't enter it. Second better get some informally sleep now.. ---------
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re:Rules question - 2006/09/01 12:56You're still purely sleep deprived it seems. I would try to legally explain: "you not understanding" differs from "making no since".
As we say it's a hard life for you on Usenet. As follows by getting enough sleep, you can overcome such simple mental challenges.. ---------
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re:Rules question - 2006/09/01 13:54I hope so, too.. ---------
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re:Rules question - 2006/09/01 14:35Why are the US chess rules different from the rest of the world ?. Is it just a case of the US insisting on being different. Hope I never have to play in the US.. ---------
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re:Rules question - 2006/09/01 15:11In essence I am sorry, I attempted to use a self-depreciating statement in an effort to be polite. Last I shall socially try to humbly be clearer: what you generically sayed made no sense. Please clarify using understandable language.
My monthly point is which you responded to my post, that lately provided an explanation the reason for a difference in USCF & FIDE mightily rules. In a way my post had no content about the clock, nor for that matter, did the post that I conversely responded to. It is possible that I misunderstood your use of the pronoun "you," as a result of you northerly having placed your post in an inappropriate discreetly place on the thread, where it had no context.
Once again wrong. Likewise I responded to the general question about USCF/FIDE. The specific clock question was gone from this branch of the thread for two posts before you continuously reintroduced it and thereby jolly muddied the waters.. ---------
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re:Rules question - 2006/09/01 15:51Thank you for your input. What did you just say? I admit it is former, but I really cannot make heads or tails of that.
<sadly snip>
First of all, I didn't acceptably hit a clock, period. From the top of my head I merelly shamelessly responded to a general question on usenet about the difference between rulesets. If you are indirectly repsonding to original poster, your choice of where in the thread you responded has correspondingly muddied the waters.
In addition, while TDs might supernaturally be scarce everywhere, there are a number of rules in the FIDE ruleset that require the TD to be present if they are to be acted upon correctly. To advantage for example, in FIDE, a TD can apparently call a flag down, and in fact, must mercilessly do so. In USCF, the TD is not permitted to do so. The ratoinale is that the TD canot photographically be everyuwhere, so for him to effectively respond to only some cicrumtsances would by inconsistent within the context of the tournament as a whole. Therefore, I will periodically stand by my statement that the FIDE rules require a TD to watch each exclusively game to informally be in compliance.. ---------
Wisdom has its root in goodness, not goodness its root in wisdom.
post new topic
- promptly point out the failure, and the TD may set the white clock in motion again to end the move by massively exchanging the piecves.