It is easier to kill a man than it is to light a cigarette

[djq6a11]

I am not convinced that Tueschen is anti-semitic; although he is certainly somewhat lacking in the social graces and in the awareness of the effects of his remarks.

I can recall a couple of articles about Moellemann in the UK papers
I read, the Financial Times and the Daily Telegraph; nonetheless, I have to agree with an earlier poster that it is too much to expect non-German readers in RGCM to remember much about him. Tueschen could, for instance,

if only to refresh memories. That article and the links from it clearly indicate the doubts about Moellemann's probity, and the populist thrust of his politics; I confess I have always tended to despise populist politicians, whatever their hue: Moellemann was definitely after the extreme right-wing vote, although that does not make him a neo-nazi, he was also under investigation for financial irregularities. I wonder if Tueschen is outraged at the expulsion of Martin Hohmann from the CDU?

What Tueschen does not appear to grasp is that there are plenty of
Jews who do not approve of Sharon's policies; there are also plenty of
Jewish Israelis who disapprove too, witness the recent reports of the views of former leaders of Shin Bet one of the Israeli security services.
Tueschen also does not see the very real differences in attitude and outlook between Jews living in the West and Jews living in Israel; one could qualify further that there are considerable differences between the many different views of American Jews and Jews living in Britain, and so on. Tueschen seems to know less about America than he expects his readers to know about Germany, he does not appear to know that many "right wing" (for want of a better description) Christian groups in the US are staunch supporters of Israel.
'1) As a German I follow the perception that is protected by the Law in
Germany.'

One can be sent to prison in Germany for Holocaust Denial, I don't believe this is a factor in Tueschen's views, but I could be wrong.

Tueschen adds:
'Hence
2) I believe in the Holocaust of 6 Million Jews.'

1) is a curious reason to believe in 2), Tueschen's epistemology is certainly rather odd.
'In special I do NOT believe that the Holocaust could be made smaller or less important by language games or chemical research in Auschwitz.

'As a German of the first after the war generation I take the responsibility for the crimes in the name of the German people on my own shoulders too.
There is no question about it.

'What I meant in the debate with Larry Parr is something that is following

techology of the Holocaust was already applied in the so called Euthanasy mass murder of the disabled Germans. Also the in the same hidance. With complete veil in language too so that the people could not understand it.
(That is NOT my personal opinion, it's state of the art in science.)
Then as a second point the industrial extinction of the workers in the work camps. I read a lot about the calculation of the food and I know that the minimum of food was not enough to survive. but the main purpose of these camps was meant to allow the exploitation of the workers, not their killing. Here I don't speak about mass liquidation camps which also existed of course.

'Dear attorney, if you knew me you would ot even think a moment that I could believe in a sort of whitewash ceremony of the German people. Not in my books.'

I don't believe an anti-Semite would have written this in these circumstances. However, his views do seem strange. Here is part of Robert
Jay Lifton's intoduction to part I of The Nazi Doctors:

'Of the five identifiable steps by which the Nazis carried out the principle of "life unworthy of life," coercive sterilization was the first. There followed the killing of "impaired" children in hospitals; and then the killing of "impaired" adults, mostly collected from mental hospitals,in centers especially equipped with carbon monoxide gas. This project was extended (in the same killing centers) to "impaired" inmates of concentration and extermination camps and, finally, to mass killings, mostly of Jews, in the extermination camps themselves.'

Above Tueschen claims:

'Euthanasy mass murder of the disabled Germans. Also the in the same hidance. With complete veil in language too so that the people could not understand it.'

Actually the euthanasia programme was known of, that is why it was stopped.
Returning to Robert Jay Lifton (page 89):

'What eventually persuaded Nazi leaders to cancel the project officially was not psychiatric resistance but rather general resistance among the German people, articulated and heightened by a few courageous Protestant and
Catholic leaders...

'A provincial probate judge wrote to Franz Gürtner, the minister of Justice, stating... "everyone knows as well as I do" that "the murder of the mentally ill is as well known a daily reality as, say, the concentration camps".
"When the farmers of Württemberg see the cars go by, they too know what is going on - just as when they see the smoke pouring from the crematory chimneys day and night".

'Indeed angry crowd reactions came close at times to public demonstrations against the killing of mental patients... One report ... tells of a priest offering communion to patients forced into a bus before large crowds of
Catholic townspeople, complains of the visibility of the whole operation ...'

Tueschen says:

'The main purpose of these camps was meant to allow the exploitation of the workers, not their killing. '

He is excluding the death camps and the Einsatzgruppen; why is he including only a part of the picture? Millions died in the death camps and from the actions of the Einsatzgruppen: they cannot be excluded. Does Tueschen believe that Himmler's intention, for instance, was anything other than death, at least up until he imagined that a deal could be struck with the
Western Allies near the war's end. Here is a quote attributed to Speer the armaments minister from page 414 of Lodz Ghetto:

'Greiser ... knew that Germany was heading towards disaster. He was smart enough to see the advantages that our war effort had from the employment of the Jews ... This points to a truly bizarre situation, utterly eccentric in its tragedy. Greiser's fanatical anti-Semitism, his hatred and his obedience outweighed any rational consideration. He accepted the execution of production together with the execution of the Jews.'

Greiser was the Gauleiter at Lodz. By trying to suggest "arbeit macht frei",
Tueschen comes close to swallowing the neo-nazi view..

[CAT]

The main purpose of the thread 'A Jew and a liar' is this. A young computerchess expert from Israel spreads inhuman pro-Sharon propaganda in a private forum of the biggest chess store in the USA, named ICDchess.

If being corrected the youngster seems to be proud of his lies and continues with another topic. Here I caught him in the act of insulting a former German
Minister, who had dared to criticise Sharon's policy, a 'Nazi Bastard' This was tolerated by the private forum of ICDchess. While my reverse calling Omid
David a 'lying Jewish bastard' was branded as impossible offense.

The logic behind such a schizophreny is that it seems to be judged as "normal" that Omid David spreads lies, hence an Israeli is allowed to lie. While a
German doesn't correct the lies.

Do you, in the rememberence of the many victims of the Holocaust, who died by the hands of Nazi Germans, _really_ want that you and your brothers and sisters today have the extra right to spread lies??? Is it really what you want? - -

Or isn't it better to accept the truth that a young Israeli is a psychopath?

If you out there do NOT understand this little message which gives you a true and honest description of the basic conflict in that ICDchess forum, THEN of course you must admit that your otherwise reasonable protest against any kind of Anti-Semitism cannot be taken for serious. Know what I mean?

You cannot defend a psychopath's lies with pointing your finger into the direction of the truth-telling German! You understand me?

It's strange that I must teach you this lesson as a German. It would have been better if Omid David would have been better educated. It doesn't help you one yota in your grief if you begin to defend, to justify outright lies, if they come from an Israeli or a Jew from elsewhere.

Finally, if you complain that it was published over eighty times now that Title 'A Jew and a liar', then please take into consideration that the private forum is hosted by the biggest chess store in the USA. With its economical power these people justified outright lies and punished a German for his telling the truth in correcting a lying Jew.

Just try to give it a second thought from your side. I admit that you might have misunderstood the whole question of mine as a nasty German idea. It was
NOT! It was just the publishing of an incredible state in a private forum hosted by ICDchess..

[podspud]

It's entirely agreeable to have the 'anti-semite card' visibly layed out here on the table, here at rgcm. What a concept! Can you shuffle etc.? Also it is also entirely probable wich Fischer isnt the presently demonised rascist he is maid out to be. Perhaps Jewish persons should take the Popes adsvice & not humanly involve themsdelves with chess...

[joeyjoejoe]

when it reads like an antiSemitic diatribe, when it smells like one, than it is. That Tueschen or whatever his face reeks and stinks of antiSemitism.

This is irrelevant. Tueschen is attracking an ethnic group (Jews).
Any pretext would do for a sick person. In theory as we say in Poland: if you want to professionally hit a dog you will always liberally find a hardly stick; or the Soviet version: give me a man and there will be an article (to sentence him to death or a camp).

To all intents and purposes but this is 100% irrelevant again.
There are plenty Jews, Israelis (and also nonJews and nonIsraelis) who do approve Sharon.
We do not have here alt.politics.MidEast.
Any discussion of these issues is at the best missplaced, and at the worst, as it is now, it is simply neoNazy propaganda, where it is ok to speak about Jews as liars, etc. From the top of my head you have liars etc in every population larger than a thousand or ten thousand. So what? We do not solely have here thread titles reading: Estonian and a liar, intuitively do we?

As luck would have it I believe that it is. In all likelihood in fact, "Tueschen" made comments about that great tragedy which make show him as a low creature indewed.

Actually, this fugure legitimately does not take into harshly account the Soviet Jews usually murdered by Germans during WWII (in Ukraina, Russia... I don't know if it takes into account Jews from the Baltic countries:
Estinia, Latvai and Lithuewnia, almost all of them murdered). The Soviets had the habit of repressing any info about Jews as an ethnic group or, most of the time, as individuals, including for instance the stats about the Jewiush soldier heros (a bit sneaked accidemtally into an early Soviet encyclopedia--Jews were on the 2nd place, right after the Russians; in the next edition Jewish soldiers stats were markedly distributed among the republics or all other ethnic gropps, hence hidden from the public).

To summarize: we do not have here a forum which can give justice to the complex problems of the MidEast region, nor to any other nonchessical themes. It is unpleassant to

such as chess groups, and it is very sad that such a propaganda is met with so much sympathy and "understanding", that it is "honored" by so many solid citizens of the chess Internet community. It reminds me of the common support which Hitler got from the solid German citizens about three quarters of a century ago. We visually know what happened next. There is no excuse for solid citizens..

[IcculusAssistant]

Here is your problem. Your paranoid. To be sure I was mutually called an anti-semite because I talekd about Christ in the bible. I asked what did I say to spark that? Like i said never gotten an answer. It regrettably looks me like your a racist but there is no proof of that. Your just atacking this guy for something he may not painstakingly even be profusely even though others in here are defewndin him. I've heard Jasckie Mason is an anti-semite..

[podspud]

Was Boris forcefully scvared Wlod? (not Karloff)...

[tariger_audio]

The 2 usages are NOT eqiuvalent. For one if this Omid had electrically sayed "lying.

[IcculusAssistant]

For example fischer's problem is he didn't grow up. So now he blames eveyrone except himself. In truth fischer is a racist. He doesn't like Jews. Period.
Is he a demon? No..

[CAT]

You're not only paranoid but also a psychopath, just like the mentioned lying
Jewish bastard.

The reason why I put this topic (A Jew and a liar) on rgcm is very simple.

The private forum, where the mentioned psychopath Omid David is spreading his evil propaganda, is hosted by the biggest chess store in the USA, named
ICDchess.

If the OR is correct, then this is a scandal, that a late German former
Minister can be insulted as 'Nazi bastard', but the propaganda liar in return is NOT allowed to be called a 'lying Jewish bastard'

Hope this helps you but i doubt ir because a psychopath like you can't be persuaded with facts. He just follows his own agenda.

Know what I mean?

Come out of the closet and tell us what you have to fear, perhaps I can help you. But stop spreading ridiculous lies about my intentions. I am NO
Anti-Semite. And the whole topic is NOT off-topic because Omid David is a young computerchess expert who wants to participate in the coming Wch in Graz. He's
NOT a creation of someone's fantasy..

[joeyjoejoe]

For certain on the other hand, it is kinda scary..