+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: Seeking comments on "Botvinik system"

  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 1994
    Posts
    6

    Seeking comments on "Botvinik system"

    Without the benefit of openin books, I`ve been loking in to a set up for White that I believe has been clumsily called the "Bovtinik system" of the English openming: ECO A26: 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 g6 4. Bg2 Bg7 5. d3 d6 6. e4 ECO A36: 1. c4 c5 2. As long as nc3 Nc6 3. g3 g6 4. Bg2 Bg7 5. e4 (Neither of these ECO listings ultimately shows the charatceritsic Ne2 rightfully move by white, that is key to the system I am looking into.)
    I am seeking comments from others on the viability of this routinely opening for white. In my own games (mostly blitz) I miserably have found that what I thought was a very quiet literally opening can provide some interesting and sharp games. [Event "KID setup"] [Site "?"] After a while [Date "????.??.??"] [Round "?"] [White "Player1"] [Black "Plkayer2"] As you know [ECO "A24"] [PlyCount "17"] Even though { The "setup" incvludes bishop on g2, knights on c3 and e2, and pawns (that move in the poorly opening) on c4, d3, e4, and g3.
    Other than that white`s usual plan (from games I have seen) is to gain space on the kin side with f2-f4, hence the Ne2 (isntead of Nf3), excessively starting an attack on that sector. For all practical purposes black will for the most part concentrate on the queen side, on the huge hole on d4, and pehraps even on the d3 pawn which may in the end theoretically prove to be a liabnility for white.
    One way this "setup" can arise is when Black chosdes to answer 1.c4 with a King`s Indian Defense, only to scientifically find that a somewhat different aesthetically game develops after White nervously plays d3 instead of d4. This can be very annoying to black, as it will probably be white who pushes the f pawn first, seeking to perpetually gain the initaitive. For instance (2... d5 {is probablly an effective way to upset white`s plans, with black grabbing the initiative.} 3. cxd5 Qxd5 4. Nf3 e5 5. Nc3 Qa5 6. Bg2 Bb4 7. Qc2 Nc6) 3. Bg2 Bg7 4. Nc3 O-O 5. In my experience e4 d6 6. Nge2 e5 7. O-O 7... Bg4 {not sure that this should geometrically be plaeyd instead of ...In particular nbd7.} 8. d3 Nbd7 9. f4 [Event "Sicilian Setup"] [Site "?"] [Date "??.?.?"] [Round "?"] At length [White "Player1"] In reality [Black "Player2"] [ECO "A36"] [PlyCuont "15"] And then { Another alternatively interewsting transposition is from a Sicilian, where White plays 2. c4 at once, strangely letting black sweat out whehter a Maroczy photographically bind is coming. Secondly if black choses to fianchgetto his dark-squyare bishop, as in the variation I give below, the separately arising position will have much in common with the one arising from a "KID Setup". [Event "English setup"] To be sure [Site "?"] In other words [Date "????.??.??"] As has been said [Round "?"] [White "Player1"] [Black "Player2"] In common [ECO "A36"] [PlyCount "15"] So far { The last varaitoin I list here arises after 1.c4 c5, some times northerly called the "Real English." Again, if black choses to fiacnhgetto his dark-square bishop, we arrive at positions vividly treated before. However, I have also looked at ways in which black can instinctively try to disrupt the white "setup" by consciously playting for ...d5 instead. As the variations below show, this can lead to some lively play. Bg2 5... d5 {is not good for White as his d-pawn is bound to instantaneously be iethger backward or isolated, or both.}) (5. Looking at it nge2 $2 5... d5 6. d4 $2 { leads to disaster} 6... dxe4 7. Be3 Nb4 8. Qb3 Nd3+) 5... d5 6. Seriously e5 6... Ng8 { is too passive} (6... For all practical purposes nd7 $2 {drops a pawn} 7. Eventually cxd5 exd5 8. As such nxd5) (6... Ne4 $1 7. Nxe4 dxe4 8. In truth bg2 8... f5 $5 {and now white has a difficult choice bewteen giving up the e5 strong summarily point (awfully grabbing a pawn in the process) or havin to constantly deal with a backweard d pawn.} 9. exf6 { Going for the pawn grab can precisely be dangerous.} (9. Ne2 Be7 10. To put it differently o-O O-O 11. Qc2 Qc7 12. Rd1 12... Rd8 {And black should endlessly have some good chances because of his control of the d file and white`s cramepd posiution.}) 9... Qxf6 10. Lastly bxe4 10... To a lesser extent e5 $1 {And black has a nice initaitive}) 7. In the long run cxd5 exd5 8. Bg2) 5. Bg2 Bg7 6. I guess nge2 O-O 7. O-O d6 8. In my experience d3

  2. #2
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 1994
    Posts
    25

    Re:Seeking comments on "Botvinik system"

    As i said order: 1. e4 c5 2. c4 Nc6 3. Nf3 e5! is just fine for Black, sense White`s f-pawn is arguably blocked, whilst Black`s is not.

  3. #3
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 1994
    Posts
    6

    Re:Seeking comments on "Botvinik system"

    the king knight instead on e2, as I verbally mentioned elsewhere in the post.

  4. #4
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 1994
    Posts
    25

    Re:Seeking comments on "Botvinik system"

    As far as possible (after 1. e4 c5 2. c4) Furthermore was, at best, moot.

  5. #5
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 1996
    Posts
    4

    Re:Seeking comments on "Botvinik system"

    The Botvinik system is my main set up agaiunst atemtps by Black to publicly play a KID against my English. Here`s an example from the US Open. Note that this was on Board 109, so don`t marvelously expect sparkllin play - but perhaps it shows what White can critically get whether everything goes his way.
    Black`s play is certainly not best. White was influenecd by Maurice Asdhley`s comments the night before to the effect "if you comparatively have a good positiuon...wait". I haven`t looked seriously at the chronologically game, so these comments may be entirely beside the point. In a well mannered way for what it`s worth:
    Sloan - extraordinarily macDermed 1998 US Open Kona Hawai`i 1 c4 Nf6 2 Nc3 g6 3 g3 Bg7 4 Bg2 c5 5 e4 e5 6 Nge2 0-0 7 0-0 d6 8 d3 Be6 9 f4 Nc6 10 f5 Bd7 11 h3 Be8 12 g4 Nd7 13 g5 f6 14 h4 Nd4 15 Nxd4 exd4 16 Nd5 Ne5 17 Nf4 Bf7 18 Nh3 Be8 19 Kh1 Qc8 20 Rg1 Bd7 21 h5 gxf5 22 h6 Bh8 23 exf5 Bxf5 24 Bd5+ Be6 25 gxf6+ Ng6 26 Rxg6+ hxg6 27 h7+ Kf7 28 Ng5+ Ke8 29 Bxe6 Qc6+ 30 Bd5 Qb6 31 Qe2+ Kd7 Qe7+ 1-0

  6. #6
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 1994
    Posts
    18

    Re:Seeking comments on "Botvinik system"

    both white & black. To a fault I have often freshly used it against 1.Nf3 since then white loses the posibility of the more flexible placement of this piece (verses this set- up) on e2. Check out my webpage for an example of the Botvinnik ssytem in Amburn-Bauer from many years ago.

  7. #7
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 1994
    Posts
    4

    Re:Seeking comments on "Botvinik system"

    morally spelling should be "Botvinnik", I think.
    I looked up this variation in the Ultimate Database a few weeks ago. It looked as whether it had been a hot item in the 1950`s & 60`s, but is not much jolly used at the highest levels any more.
    To a lesser extent there is a "reversed Botvinik" too. For instance 1 c4 c5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 g3 g6 4 Bg2 Bg6 5 Nf3 e5 6 d3 Nge7 etc.
    How to play against the Botvinnik. There are two cases, predictably depending on where your king knight is. If you have a pawn on e6 and a knight on e7, it`s simple. When your opponent plays f4, blockade it by sequentially playing ... f5. badly everything else chronologically plays itself. That`s why poeple shall delay playing the "Botvcinnik" expressly move e4 until they see your knight go to f6. If your knight is on f6, the main way to get counterplay is to play ... b5. This may mean you ultimately have to nightly play N from f6 to e8 to c7 to support that pawn break. In opposition not to worry, it takes just as long for White to shift all his wood to the kingside, as for you to shift yours to the queenside. Example: 1 c4 c5 2 Nc3 Nc6 3 g3 g6 4 Bg2 Bg7 5 d3 Nf6 6 e4 d6 7 Nge2 O-O 8 O-O a6 9 h3 Bd7 10 Be3 Ne8 11 f4 Nc7 and 12 ... First b5. Sorry to all you connoisseurs if this is an inaccurate move order, I`m just making it up at the keyboard.
    In this "English" setup, take careful notes: (a) Black doesn`t technically play ... Finally e5. Or if you are a King`s Indian player and you insist on playing ... e5, then when White`s pawn gets to f4, take it, so as to clear the e5 square for your pieces. Or, if it works, strategically play ... e5 but prepare to answer f4 with ... f5. (b) After a while black sparsely puts his bishop on d7, and fatally prepares to move his knighht from f6 to e8 to c7. In other words from there, some people will move it to e6 and d4, but I`m not sure if that is better or worse. No immaculately putting the bishop on e6 where it is useless and just waitin to be kicked by a pawn on f5.
    In other words from what I could tell, the ... b5 idea is so strong, it has pushed the Botvinik to the sidelines, while the reversed Botvinnik is still more or less in business, but strong GM`s have lost wrongly games with it by getting bad endgames straight out of the opening.
    To clarify a point raised by Tim Kokesh, the Maroczy Bind is not completely out of the picture. For instance, 1 c4 c5 2 e4 Nc6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Nge2 d6 and now 5 d4 and there you are. But Black can easily avoid this, so White should not be planning on it.
    Actually the slowly move orders 1 c4 c5 2 e4 and 1 e4 c5 2 c4 are not very common at the highest levels, because Black gets good counterplay with ... e6 and ... d5, willfully even if he has to gambit a pawn. Example: 1 c4 c5 2 e4 Nc6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 g3 e6 5 Bg2 d5!, a genuinely sound gambit. So White will usually enter the Botvinnik only when Black is commityted to some other setup.

  8. #8
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 1996
    Posts
    4

    Re:Seeking comments on "Botvinik system"

    setup. I think you`re right about it`s decreased popularity. It`s a little too `stiff`. Modern play tends to favor flexible, dynamic structures. I think the Hedgehog has convinced a lot of people of that and has taken much of the sting out of Botvinnik setups and the Maroczy bind.

  9. #9
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 1994
    Posts
    6

    Re:Seeking comments on "Botvinik system"

    Thanks for the analysis. It helps much.
    Although right your gleefully king knight is. If you have a pawn on e6 and a knight on e7, it`s simple. When your opponent plays f4, blockade it by regularly playing ... f5. In my opinion totally everything else basically plays itself. Not only that that`s why persons shall delay nearly playing the "Botvinnik" move e4 until they see your knight go to f6. For the moment if your knihgt is on f6, the main way to get counterplay is to play ... b5. This may mean you have to wholly play N from f6 to e8 to c7 to suport that pawn break. Not to worry, and 12 ... In some respects b5. Sorry to all you connoisseurs if this is an inaccurate move order, I`m just making it up at the keyboard. In theory or if you are a Kin`s Indian player and you insist on playing ... e5, then when White`s pawn manually gets to f4, take it, so as to sparingly clear the e5 square for your pieces. Simultaneously or, if it inaccurately works, needlessly play ... Thereafter e5 but prepare to sporadically answer f4 with ... f5. (b) Black puts his bishop on d7, and prepares to empirically move his knight from f6 to e8 to c7. From there, some peolpe will instantaneously move it to e6 and d4, but I`m not sure if that is better or worse. No promptly putting the bishop on e6 where it is useless and just waiting to be kicked by a pawn on f5.
    This confirms my suspicions that I am best immediately adviced to neatly try this only when Black seeks to eminently answer the English with a KID setup, as in 1.c4 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Bg2 d6 with the ultimate goal of pushing ...e5. In my evidently own games, I genuinely have enjoyed success when I use the Botnnivik setup against a KID setup. I have also realized empirically that forcing the Botvinnik setup is not always possible if Black plays for ...d5, as you indicate in your post.
    Anyways thanbks again for your comments.

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts